These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on 
the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000.  A large portion 
of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list 
members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain 
from sharing this data with non list members.  When the list ended, it was 
urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it 
seemed like a good idea all around.

I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in 
some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and 
refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel 
web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, 
and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site.

Many Thanks.
Chris Davis
Moderator:  Blue Room mailing list 

Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 
CC BY-NC-ND

BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 27  [20 July 1998 - 15 October 1998]

781: Religious Items
782: Gender Issue Responses
783: The Undying Wizards
784: UCon Notice:  Needs Tuesday Response
785: More on the N'luss
786: More Old Gamers
787: Temple of Jneksha'a
788: More Different Sanjesh
789: Food of the Ssu
790: Addressing an Officer
791: Map Comments
792: More Religious Items
793: More Food of the Ssu
794: Party Mix
795: More Food of the Ssu
796: Jade Arch Update
797: Language Question
798: Worshipping the Deities of Change
799: Deities of Change Response
800: Reality of Tekumel
801: UCon Event Decription
802: Addressing an Officer Response
803: Northeast Frontier Maps
804: More Map Comments
805: More on Language
806: Deities of Change Response
807: Political Update
808: More Change Worship
809: More Language Question
810: Tekumel Web Ring

*******************************

//781

[Moderator's Note:  Dwight Grosso asks about Tekumelani religious and sac-   ]
[                   rificial items of the Temples.  The Professor replies.   ]

>I'm curious about some of the inspiration behind several of the drawings of
>religious paraphenalia and sacrifical items. Several of the sacrificial blades
>in the Book of Ebon Bindings look all the world like a Tibetan spirit dagger.
>Were these illustrated weapons based on Phurba's and their like? Also, do
>temples use sacrificial weapons like the ceremonial Kukris of the Ghurkas? It
>seems logical that something like this would be used for a larger animal
>sacrifice.

>Sincerely,
>Dwight Grosso

No direct influence from Tibet that I know of --I probably read too many
pulp fantasy novels during my formative years. I can't recall which ones
produced these daggers.

The temples of Chegarra and Karakan have "dedicated" swords that play a
part in certain rituals, as well as serving as fighting weapons for the
elite of their faiths. Warrior priests in the temple of Vimuhla also have
their "flame-swords" (rather like the late-mediaeval flamberge) that serve
as meditation/concentration points for their devoted worshippers. Other
faiths may have "sacred" daggers, etc. for specified rituals.

Regards,
Phil
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//782

[Moderator's Note:  Sheesh!  I didn't do my job very well.  There were some ]
[                   heated responses to Geoffrey's message.  One of the     ]
[                   best was from Giovanna Fregni.  Hers is first, followed ]
[                   by others from numerous people on the list.  Some are a ]
[                   bit heated, sorry if the tone offends anyone.           ]
[                   I'm going to put the lid on this here and now, with the ]
[                   sending of this whopper of a message.  But I thought all]
[                   the responses should be seen.  All the messages have    ]
[                   good points to make.  I suggest we read them all.  If   ]
[                   people want to discuss this, let's take it to the news- ]
[                   group.                                                  ]

[                   One other thing.  I am into a massive set of projects   ]
[                   in preparation for our school year.  I will likely be   ]
[                   fairly quiet over the next few weeks.  I'll try to pop  ]
[                   something out every few days, though.  Your patience, as]
[                   always is appreciated.  The ftp/web site was down for a ]
[                   couple of days, but it should be fine now.  We will be  ]
[                   putting a firewall in place soon, and it will disappear ]
[                   again for a while.  I'll let you know where and when it ]
[                   will reappear.                                          ]

Gio Says...

OK, I guess it's time to put in my two cents
worth on the gender issue. First of all I guess I'd better identify
myself. My name is Giovanna Fregni, and though that sometimes confuses
folks, I am what is currently labeled as a genetic female. I have gamed
and worked with Professor Barker for (gads!) almost eight years now.
So, I feel privileged to know Tekumel to the extent that I do. Given my
position, I feel I need to address Geoffrey McVey's posting here. 

First of all, I am going to assume that Mr. McVey is a North
American male of Judeo-Christian background. (I'm guessing, OK? I could
be wrong.) And I believe he is right when he says that we bring our own
personal backgrounds into a game. After all, it's hard enough to think
of life in terms of what it was like in the middle ages, let alone
ancient Greece or Egypt. However, since I have gamed in Tekumel, I have
not seen the prejudices that Mr. McVey has found. Actually, many of the
statements he's made fall into the "so when did you quit beating your
wife" category. And first lest anyone think I am a polite and simpering
housewife, I should mention that I worked for the Wisconsin Equal
Rights Amendment and also for rights for single mothers (yep, I was one
of "those" back in the seventies. 

As far as the poetic contributions go, hey, it was funny. So was
the "Night Before Chitlasha", and a host of other things
Bob has done. Come to think of it Bob has done as many jokes in
reference to guys on Tekumel as he has about women. He's also joked
plenty of times about architecture we've ruined and spells gone awry.
There was even talk about an epic parody of "The Wizard of Oz."
So, if Mr. McVey has a hard time with jokes of certain
subject matters, perhaps he should stick to "safer" reading matter. 

Which brings me to Mr. McVey's view of women of Tekumel. Sure there
are predatory women, there are manipulative women, there are passive
women, there are warrior women. There are lesbian and bisexual women.
There are mothers, daughters, aunts and grandmothers. There is every
type of woman that you care to look for. And I am sure if you also care
to look, they are all sexual beings to one extent or other, simply
because humans are sexual beings. The difference Tekumel makes is that
gender roles and sexuality are far more visible than most North
Americans are used to. 

Now, if Aiis (Sanjesh's wife) moon beam spell makes her more of a
"look, but don't touch" character. What does that make any other magic
using player character? What about warrior characters? The point is
that this is a role playing game. A person can play their role two
dimensionally, or a good GM can draw that person out. By having a whole
world like Tekumel, there are limitless possibilities for a character
to develop. Not only by being a magic using character. But also by
being a character with responsibilities (hey, the temple taught you
those spells and your clan house likely footed the bill, there's always
a pay back...), history and relationships (not necessarily sexual). 

Of all the people I have heard of in the years of playing Tekumel,
I've known of only one man who played an Aridani female. Believe me, he
didn't have an easy time of it. Being Aridani grants no privileges
except you can go your own way. The point is that, it is hard to be a
female player character without being Aridani. To go on an adventure,
you have to leave the clan house. That doesn't mean she gives up her
gender. Aridani women have sex and can have kids. (Yes, that's
happened, too.) It's not easy traveling with a pregnant character, but
that's life on Tekumel. But then, that's life everywhere. 

I think Bob Alberti can better address the debate on the roles of
the Gods and Goddesses. But a few points: First of all, women
reproduce. All the major religions of the world have a mother goddess
(often hidden) in their background. Remember, we're still dealing with
human beings on Tekumel, so it stands to reason that Tekumel should
have mother goddesses, too. However, not all goddesses revolve around
sex. Dilinala is a goddess of women alone. This doesn't necessarily
connote sexuality. If Mr. McVey has any lesbian friends, he will know
that, even though they prefer to have sex with other women, sex is not
necessarily the driving force in their lives. There are gods and
goddesses of all aspects of life and death. In fact one could just as
easily go through the list and say that every god or goddess revolves
around death. (Avanthe? the cycle of life and death. Hrihayal, she
prepares the servants for the tomb...) One of the wonderful aspects of
Tekumel is the establishment of the concordat, banishing the notion of
good vs evil religions. A Sarku worshipper has as much right to her
religion as a worshipper of Avanthe. If  Mr. McVey is looking for an
improvement of the human condition, there's a big one right there.  In
focussing so tightly on one small aspect of life on Tekumel, Mr. McVey
has thrown the baby out with the bath water. Perhaps if he could look
beyond his limitations he could see here a wonderful world inhabited by
alien and human cultures, fantastic cities, filled with both slums and
high clan houses, well traveled routes on sakbe roads  and unexplored
terrain. There is every aspect of humanity and then some. Tekumel is a
whole world. It's full of sounds, sights, tastes, smells. So, if
sexuality turns you off, walk past the Temple of Dlamelish. Go to the
marketplace and buy a loaf of fresh dna grain bread, argue with a
Tinaliya, go to the Festival of Lights on a warm night in Bey Su. By
all means, experience as much of the world of Tekumel as you can.  

-----
Joe Saul writes...

Geoffrey McVey wrote:
>In any event, Aridani appear to be
>the minority, and -- feel free to correct me -- largely the domain of
>men wishing to play female characters.

Allow me to correct you, at least so far as my own campaign goes.  I have
five players -- three women and two men.  All three of the women play
Aridani.

I believe that all three of the women in my campaign would describe
themselves as feminists if asked.  In any event, they're well-educated and
politically aware.  How could a feminist enjoy roleplaying in Tekumel?  Well,
how can one enjoy living in our *real* world?  (Tsolyanu, at least, offers an
option for full legal equality.  We tried that in the United States and the
amendment failed.)  Since one of the players is on this list, I'll leave it
there and let her comment further.

Here's another way to look at it:

I'm a 32-year-old graduating law student at a major US law school.  I
specialize in Internet issues, so I'm predominantly a constitutional lawyer
with some intellectual property in the mix.  I'm pro-free speech,
pro-privacy, pro-civil rights, and pro-civil liberties.  I generally vote
Democratic; Republicans in Michigan want to return us to the 1950s, with
school prayer, back-alley abortions, and Black shoe-shine boys.  Michigan
doesn't have the death penalty, and I wouldn't vote to bring it back.

I sometimes get choked up when I read speeches by Martin Luther King.

I take my views very seriously.  I'm likely to pass up some extremely high-
paying law firm positions in order to continue working for the University, a
position in which I am free to advocate free speech, privacy, and the right
to access anything you want without fear of censorship.

I gamemaster Tekumel, a world where slavery is legal, the state is a
religion, the Gods are real, and anyone who questions the state's right to
do whatever it wants gets a wooden pole up the ass.

How can I do this?

First, and perhaps foremost, I enjoy role-playing people and cultures that
are very different from myself.  It helps me to understand perspectives that
differ from my own, and recognize that views I disagree with can be held just
as sincerely as I hold my own.  This is beneficial in my line of work.  It's
also *fun* to play someone different from you.

If your point was "Tekumel can be run as a bad male fantasy," you're quite
right.  Then again, so can games set in the Western pseudo-medieval
tradition, as anyone who started playing D&D as a 12-year-old can testify.
Tekumel does indeed have features that could lend themselves to that kind of
exploitation.  But it doesn't have to be run that way, and you aren't giving
your fellow list members much credit by assuming that we do so.

Joe Saul
-------

Bob Alberti writes...

Geoffrey McVey:
>What concerns me more in Tekumel is what strikes me as a
>remarkably immature attitude towards women and sexuality in general.

Well, this is the silliest thing I've seen posted about Tekumel in a while.

If for example your spouse wishes to sneer at the Tsolyani pantheon, maybe
she'd like to meet the Livyani Goddess Quyove, who is a goddess of
amorphous darkness and death that makes Sarku look like a Cub Scout, second
only to Black Qarqa for sheer terror.  And I suppose you didn't discuss the
Goddess of the Pale Bone with her, a deity so terrible that her name can't
be spoken, whose goal is the absolute nullity of all things, the
never-have-been of whole universes.  Yeah, that's a typical sexist role,
all right.

Of course, if one tries hard enough, one can find a protofeminist objection
to almost everything:  Avanthe, Goddess of Cycles?  A demeaning
earth-mother image.  Dlamelish, Goddess of Sex?  A demeaning harlot.
Dilinala, the Goddess of Woman as Woman Alone?  A titillating lesbian
fantasy!  Quyove, Goddess of Darkness?  The embodiment of the fear men
harbor for women!  Hayekka, the female Aspect of Belkhanu dedicated to
charting the many planes?  Woman reduced to the role of secretary!
Damaris, female Aspect of Gruganu:  just another tramp leading good men
astray!  And Hamara, female Aspect of Chegarra, who oversees the proper
operation of Imperial justice and the Imperial legal system:  just an
imperious mother-image projection.

Yeah, if you want, you can object to almost anything.  But do the
objections have any merits?  How about this:  Avanthe:  Goddess of Cycles,
female because men don't have cycles.  Dilinala:  a goddess who seeks to
honor womanhood unsullied by male intervention, respectful and exploring of
women.  Quyove, Hayekka, Damaris, Hamara:  maybe they're just female
because they're female.  Maybe that's okay?

Now, mind you, I'm no expert on the published cultures of role-playing
systems.  Still, tell me, how many other role-playing games even tackle
sexuality, much less embrace it the way Tekumel does?  Does any game
present the concept of Aridani status?  Does any published game-culture
incorporate homosexuality and bisexuality, polyamory or matriarchy -- or do
they completely ignore such ideas?  When was the last time you met a gay
hobbit and his partner while having lunch at the home of a lesbian elf?
When was the last time such a concept wasn't a JOKE, but was simply part of
the society?

Tekumel offers not one but SEVERAL cultures, each of which handle sexuality
and women's roles in entirely different fashions.

Tsolyanu's culture is patriarchal in the south and matriarchal in the
north.  Yan Kor is largely matriarchal.  In some places on Tekumel women
are treated as slaves and property -- and in other places, such as
Bayarsha, males are treated as slaves and property.  These places are all
DIFFERENT, not simply homogenous male-dominated projections.  You can't
broadbrush Tekumel as some kind of male-dominated sexual fantasy.

Tsolyani sexuality is open and forthright.  Women can head clans and
households, can take husbands, run businesses, become warriors, and even be
Empresses.  And if you think A'is, I'ena, Chitlasha or Rua are "look but
don't touch" women, you haven't been around when they decided they want
some touch.  A'is is "look but don't touch" because a) she's married to
Sanjesh, b) nobody discussed so far has the dignity, status, bearing,
manner, and courtesy to even interest her EXCEPT Sanjesh, c) she's the
once-dead and now-living daughter of an undying Wizard so terrifying that
you'd break off the engagement right after meeting your future
father-in-law EXCEPT if you were as brave as Sanjesh, and d) she's picked
up a few tricks from old Dad, back when he was ruling the Fishermen Kings.
She's a PERSON, not a gender-fantasy, and you'd know that if you ever met her.

You can object to Nayari if you like, but you miss the point that she
FORMED THE FIRST EMPIRE.  Fergoshsakes, does someone have to form an empire
AND remain politically correct doing it in order to engender respect?  I
suppose Cleopatra is to be similarly disparaged for ruling Egypt but
enjoying a good roll in the hay once and a while.  Does every female
head-of-state have to be Benazhir Bhutto or Indira Ghandi in order to
avoid criticism as a "stereotype"?  Isn't insisting that a woman be asexual
as patronizing and sexist as insisting they be "sexual manipulators"?  Why
can't these women simply be who they are -- which is much more than you or
I will ever be?

>I am somewhat disappointed that, tens of thousands of years from now in a
>world whose social structure is completely different, so many things stay
>the same and so few people appear to question it.

This is the SECOND silliest thing I've seen in a while.

This statement seems to suggest that the cultures of the future, which will
have long forgotten our culture and every feminist advancement it ever
achieved, should somehow nonetheless retain feminist achievements which our
culture doesn't even show yet.  The fact that Tekumel's cultures are in our
future does not mean that people will have somehow fundamentally changed
into some Westernized American ideal of gender equity.  The contrary is in
fact true:  cultures come and cultures go, but people remain people.  One
hundred-thousand years from now, women will still be the one's who can give
birth and make milk, and men will still be the ones trying to impregnate
the women -- or they won't BE men and women, and will just be a form of
alien descended from us and genetically engineered somewhere along the way.
 Since the humans of Tekumel are humans, it is clear that they will still
be fascinated and confused by sexuality.  That's what humanity is:
confused, horny, arrogant and horny.

>you will be shortchanging your players if you offer them only shallow
>psychologies and projected fantasies.

And please consider whether your objections are exactly that:  shallow
psychologies and projected fantasies -- in this case, simple contrarian
objections to what you perceive to be stereotypical sexist elements.

In closing I hope that you are willing to accept the response your post
engendered:  I found it arrogant and insulting, myself, as if you alone are
perceptive of and sensitive to issues of feminism far more advanced than we
sexually shallow and immature role-players can hope to grasp.  I hope to
correct your misperceptions of those of us on the list and of the cultures
of Tekumel.

-----
Keith Dalluhn writes...

In response to Mr. McVey's message I would like to present the following.

I wonder what universe that anyone has created hasn't had every character
be perfect.  From the Conan universe to Star Trek the people you see and
that are presented to you are all nearly perfect.  Where are the fat people
on Star Trek?
Being (ahem) a few pounds over what people consider ideal I notice these
things.  What it boils down to is the fact that merchandising is done to
the lowest common denominator and if 18-24 year olds buy a book or read a
story for the large breasted scantily clad female on the cover, that is
what will be presented.  This is why Tekumel in my opinion may seem to have
that feel for you.


I now present the story of 'Sex and the good clan girl.'

I  created a new character for a new scenario.  Mhizhar hiKolsuna was a
Molkar in the Legion of the Golden Sphere.  I made him a Molkar as most of
the other fighter types at the time were Kasis and I wanted to boss them
around.  On a march with Arumel's Ecumenical Army we stopped in  Thraya.  I
went to the clanhouse there and was immediately beset by ever clan woman
there.  All of them had daughters and all of them wanted to marry them off.
I was presented with the daughters, and they ranged from plain Jane, to
drop dead gorgeous.  I chose the drop dead gorgeous one.  We would have a
couple days to get to know each other and then we would be married.  I made
sure she was a 'good clan girl' and had no ambition to become Aridani.  I
wanted someone who would do as she was told and like it.  We left Thraya a
few days later and headed east for Sokatis.  On the trip there I found out
that she was sleeping with one of the bearer slaves at night. One night
after she left I crept out of the tent and followed her.  She went to meet
the slave.  I waited until I heard heavy breathing and low moans and
surprised them.  I quickly dispatched the slave and ordered her to the
tent.  Did I kill him for having sex with my wife?  Nope.  I killed him
because she was attracted to someone far below her station.  Had it been a
trained pleasure slave fine.  But a bearer slave, never.

Three days later, we reached Sokatis.  I went to report to the temple and
the palace of the realm, she went to the clan house.  I was to leave in a
few days to continue north.  She was to return to Thraya and wait for me
there.  I sent her off with enough slaves and coin to see her safely back
home.  I had to wait a couple more days for the rest of the party to get
ready.  That night, while sleeping, I was awakened by a hand over my mouth
and a dagger at my throat.  It was a member of the Black Y.  The assassins
clan.  Seems that my wife had hired them to kill me for what I had done.
He was very nice and said I had a day to come up with more money than she
had offered to buy out the contract on my life.  In an instant he was gone.
I quickly went to my clan master in th morning.  After a few hours wait
and many messages the clan master said the best they could do was buy me
two days head start.

Mizhar hiKolsuna is now somewhere on the northern frontier of Tsolyanu
hiding in as deep a hole as he can find because his good clan girl, non
Aridani wife decide he needed to be dead.


Please dont tell me about powerless women, and macho men.  It ain't real
Tekumel.

Moderator's Note:  Yeah Keith, but this kind of stuff only happens to you!!!]
[		   :)                                                       ]

-----
Joe Zottola writes...

I cannot address the issues of the temples, that is not my forte.
However, as to the comment that "Tekumel has a immature attitude towards
women and sexuality," that I can a respond to.

Having played in a myriad of campaigns, a variety of rules, and a
number of worlds, Tekumel does the best job of dealing with these issues.

Name me a sytem/world that actually addresses these issues?  To my knowledge
none do.  The other thing you must remember is that a system/world is only a
vehicle for experiencing the world, and that the real facilitator for a
"enjoyable game or world" is the GM.  How many times have you been excited
about the potential of a new world only to be disappointed in the
presentation?  And the reverse is also true crummy world, great GM, great
gaming experience.

The most integral part of the gaming experience is not necessarily
the world, but how the GM presents the setting and how the players react to
it.  The GM must be able and willing to adjust his/her plans/goals to the
playing abilities of the players...

As to the statement "an immature attitude towards women and sexuality"...
excuse me?  The whole purpose of adventure role-playing is to enable people
to experience something different, to give the players the opportunity to
immerse themselves in something that is beyond their everyday existence.

If you are looking for a game that mirrors the norms and political
correctness of the late 20th century then, GET A LIFE.  The whole reason
for the existence of the RPG/gaming industry is to allow the individual or
group to escape into another reality.

As to the statement "women as possessions or rewards:" the women who are
represented in Tekumel are far from being that.  Having played Tekumel for
15 years I have met many of the prominent women of Tekumel and
they are anything but possessions or rewards.  They can be advisory's, they
can be allies, companions or even disinterested third parties.  They all
have their own personalities and ambitions.  To call the wives of player
characters or the female NPC's objects, toys or rewards is a disservice to
the characters in question.

My character Arumel is married to one of the most powerful women on Tekumel,
and is also the love-interest of the Second of Three in Livyanu.  Let me
just say they are NOT
toys, possessions, or for that matter objects... they are individuals with
hopes, dreams, agendas... and a serious jealousy problem.

Ask any of the current and former players if being married in the game is
similar to being married in real life and the answer is more than likely a
resounding yes.  These women are anything but yes men.
And the reverse is also true:  female players with male NPC's for
husbands will tell you the same thing.

Of course this all is slightly skewed because I have had the benefit
of playing in Professor Barker's game for the last 15 years.  As I stated
earlier the quality
of a world is not necessarily the world itself but the GM who brings it
alive.  You must remember that a GM brings his own philosophy and life
experience to
a campaign and uses the information provided to craft that campaign into
what he/she wishes.

As to your statement inregards to the make-up of this mailing list
you are probably correct.  You should check with Chris to make sure although
I don't think he has bio's on all the current members.
Obviously you were offended by the poetic writings... are you that much of a
prude?  If tekumel offends your high moral and ethical
standards then don't read it or play it.  Perhaps you would find the Bible
more to your liking.  Last time I checked it had no real sexual content.  Oh
thats right... there is some in the Old Testament.

-----
Peter Huston writes...

Let me comment on Geoffrey McVey's comments.  

>This is good advice for any game, to prevent it from collapsing under the
>weight of its creator's ambitions.  However, Tekumel has its own
>characteristics which can -- and should -- give those people playing in
>the setting reason to be uncomfortable.  

Basically, what Geoffrey states is true. 
He goes on to refer to the sexism in Tekemulani cultures and the sexism he
feels is present in  the game and game materials.
Let me state that I feel these are two different problems.  

Tekumel has many social problems. 
It is not a modern setting and the people don't have modern values. 
It's the sort of place, I would "love to visit" but "hate to live there." 

The societies are horribly stratified and just full of prejudice of a
thousand and one evil varieties. 
Much more than I would like. 
On the other hand I think much of this is realistic when compared with
similar low-tech empires on our world and the basics of anthropology. 
You cannot have a vast and low tech empire running as a democracy. 
It just wouldn't happen. People don't work that way. 
The Five Empires are all very status/face/appearance/ social stratification
oriented, as one would expect under such conditions. 
(See Aztec, Inca, Traditional China, and so on for examples.) 

In such empires people are assigned to a niche and expected to be there. 
It is also typical that women are assigned a lower niche than men. 
There is a niche for everyone in Tsolyanu. Homosexuals, etc., 

Personally, I am very bothered by the rampant slavery.  
I am more bothered by the fact that albinos (persons with albinism) are
shunned, mistreated and avoided as objects of superstitious fear and
loathing. I was for some time, romantically involved with a woman with
albinism and she had had her share of weird behaviors based on a skin (and
eye) condition, and, as one would expect, she had her share of deep,
carefully hidden scars because of it. If I were running the game, this
aspect of the world would never be seen. I would find it very unpleasant to
role play it or simply think about it.

On the other hand, I don't blame the professor for this nor do I accuse him
of having a hang up about albinos and wishing to cause them suffering. I
genuinely believe that if there were a place like the five empires this is
probably exactly how they would treat a group of people who "don't look
right." It is a very superficial, status oriented, conformist culture, and
I think this is what people tend to develop under these social conditions.
"Cursed freaks!" as they say. And those who don't fit in get mistreated
because of it. 

I think the bizarre sexuality is a reasonable pressure release from the
stress and conformity of the culture. 
As such the temples of Hrihiyal and Dlamelish serve a valid purpose. 
I am, once again, bothered by the rampant acceptance of pedophilia and even
child sex slaves. 
And casual sex with slaves disturbs me as it is paramount to rape from what
I can see. 
But once again, it fits the culture. 

I think the "Aridani" status option is a major step up and is about as
close as a society of this sort will ever get to sexual equality.  
  

So much of the Tekumelani sexism is what I see as part of a general overall
trend towards "realistic" cultures which fit our understanding of
anthropology and human nature. 

Now as for sexism in the game materials! 
Well that could be a different issue all together. 
I feel like I have shot off my mouth enough for now. 
My suggestion is, if true, write your own and keep them in keeping with the
culture and I would love to see them and how they are different. Even some
sketchy notes would be good. 
How does one avoid sexism when depicting a sexist culture in an accurate
way? 
It can be done, I am sure, but it is tricky.  

-----
Scott Maxwell writes...

>I think that if you read the novels you'll get a 
>good feel for "Real" Tekumel, and find that it is pretty much what you
>expected, even if the goddesses seem sex related.  (I really don't think
>of Avanthe as a goddess of sex - even though sex plays a part in some of
>her rituals.)  But, if that is how you see it, I don't have any problem
>living with that. 

Now if you look at it, almost all of the deities are deities of sex...  
Even Chiteng has sexual practices in his rituals.  As an aside, look 
throughout the world cultures (regardless or time period) and you will 
find that every goddess is someone a goddess of sex.   I know that it a 
overt generalization (and there is one Egyptian goddess that is definitely 
not sexual, but she is not at all anthropomorphic, so that doesn't really 
count) but it is true.  Primitive "goddess" cults are centered around... 
sex.   Greek goddesses are more known for whom they bed and who they 
birthed rather than any other characteristic (Aphrodite and Hera were, 
basically, goddesses of sex...).  Even violent, destructive, and warrior 
goddesses (Ishtar and Kali) have great sexual appetites and are/were 
thought of in those terms.  Even those goddesses who are not promiscuous 
are defined by sex -- virgin goddesses.  The list goes on and on.  So 
basically, however you cut it, regardless of what culture or age you 
choose, goddesses are pretty much centered around sex.  And if you think 
about it,  most, if not all male gods are gods of sex -- unless they 
transcend gender, in which case there is a 50 - 50 chance that they are 
still into sex...  Oh well, such are humans made....

-----
Lisa Leutheuser writes...

>[Moderator's Note:  Geoffrey McVey adds to the beginning ref discussion.   ]
>[                   I add my comments to this message at the end.          ]

>willingly).  What concerns me more in Tekumel is what strikes me as a
>remarkably immature attitude towards women and sexuality in general.

Huh?  Are you sure the problem is in the Tekumelani culture or in
how particular people from 20th century Earth play Tekumel?
 
>In any event, Aridani appear to be
>the minority, and -- feel free to correct me -- largely the domain of
>men wishing to play female characters.

Or the domain of women gamers who want to play a female character 
who can be active outside of the clanhouse?

All through history, even in cultures where women were expected to
be submissive and not participate in the larger society, women who
did not fit that mold found ways to rebel or even become exceptions
of the day.  That such a culture like Tekumel that likes to pigeon 
hole people into neatly defined catagories has an actual formal role 
for such women doesn't surprise me at all.  

>The goddesses of Tekumel show a similar limit of scope: as my wife
>commented when reading through the list of deities.  "Oh, I see: this
>one's the goddess of sex and this one's the goddess of...  sex."  Making a
>distinction between "fertility" and "hedonism" still basically defines
>women solely around their ability to have sex, perpetuating an image which

Fertility is more than just the ability to have sex.  It's the
ability to bring new life into the world, and has been held in 
awe by many cultures over all of human history.  I believe 20th
century American awe of fertility is expressed in the cliche
"the miracle of life."

I don't really think of Avanthe as a goddess of sex.  Her domain
seems so much larger.  And Dlamelish is not simply the goddess of
sexual pleasure either, though so many of her devotees do enjoy
a good orgy.  There are many aspects of Dlamelish that have little
or nothing to do with sex at all, but represent some other kind 
of hedonism.   

>our own culture seems not to have shaken off.  I am somewhat disappointed
>that, tens of thousands of years from now in a world whose social
>structure is completely different, so many things stay the same and so few
>people appear to question it.

We on Earth haven't been able to shake our obsession with sex and 
fertility for over 10,000 years.  Perhaps this is human nature?
If you go back to what cultures survived on Earth and look at their 
attitudes toward men and women, I *think* that there's not that 
much difference.  And if it is human nature, then I wouldn't expect
even a human culture that is an uncountable number of years in the 
future to be all that different.

(Note:  I'm separating sex from women's rights.)

The one thing I really like about Tekumel is that it's a sex *positive*
culture.  That is, sex is not shameful but rather it's good and wonderful 
thing.  It's part of being human.  People can have or not have sex as 
they wish, and society is not going to condemn them.

(American society is still, by and large, a sex negative culture.
Just look at the resistence at sex education in our schools and.)

Whether Tekumel is portrayed as a continuous orgy or as a culture
where sex is present and a positive force in society, and you take 
it or leave it as you will, depends on the GM and the players.

You might say, it's all in the eye of the beholder and the maturity
of the player.  Our group has always tried to look beyond such things 
like the 20th century artwork to get at the real Tekumel.  Yes, we have 
characters in our champaign that are sex obsessed.  And strangely, they 
are the *female* characters played by the *women* in the group.  But 
sex isn't all they do.  They also fight with swords, manage large 
money-making ventures, play political games in their temples and 
clanhouses, study history and magic, and are willing to defend their 
honor dueling in the Hirilakte.  

(Heh.  Maybe we women of the group are taking a chance to act out 
*our* fantasies.  In our other non-EPT campaigns, sex plays a much 
smaller role just because of who the characters are, even though
the cultures in those games are largely sex positive too.)

>We have seen this topic before.  It seems that this mileau (ie Fantasy/SF role
>playing) is dominated by young males.  As such, it quite often is presented in
>a way that Geoffrey describes above.  

I don't see why young males (or females) shouldn't be allowed to act 
out their adolescent fantasies in a safe environment like gaming.  It's 
sad when such people become adults in terms of age but never mature 
emotionally or mentally beyond their teen years, but gaming isn't the 
cause or even necessarily the cure for that.  

However, I think other more mature gamers deserve a little credit at 
being able to look beyond the 20th century artwork and marketing aimed 
at young males and roleplay in a world that is something more than an 
adolescent fantasy.


Lisa Leutheuser
-----
Brett Slocum writes...

In response to Geoffrey McVey's comment on sexism on Tekumel: 
>What concerns me more in Tekumel is what strikes me as a
>remarkably immature attitude towards women and sexuality in general.

Just the opposite, I find Tekumel's less restrictive attitudes toward 
sex refreshing. And a society that both protects women (the clan system) 
and allows them the same legal rights as men (Aridani status) based on 
the woman's choice to be very reasonable, especially for an essentially 
conservative medieval empire. Also, in my experience, enjoyment of sex 
is not a male-only attitude.

[Women either are sexually-charged predators or objects of adoration]

>While the former play the part of obstacles or villains and the latter the
>part of rewards, both have their motivations and personalities constructed
>around male fantasies of women rather than around women themselves.  

Certainly your examples back up your premise, but I've met many women 
on Tekumel who were fully realized individuals, even those characters 
run by males and written about by Prof. Barker.  

>I am
>curious about the apparent exception to the rule, the Aridani: I would be
>interested in some examples of how they are portrayed in the world, since
>while I think I have read what I have with some care, I can find
>relatively few Aridani personalities.  In any event, Aridani appear to be
>the minority, and -- feel free to correct me -- largely the domain of
>men wishing to play female characters.

The background material contains many Aridani women.  When you read in 
Man of Gold or Flamesong about a female character who is a priestess, 
scholar, warrior, administrator, etc., they are an Aridani.  The two 
women involved with Harsan in Man of Gold are both Aridani.  The female 
soldiers in Flamesong are all Aridani. Many women in the game you meet 
are going to be Aridani.

>The goddesses of Tekumel show a similar limit of scope: as my wife
>commented when reading through the list of deities.  "Oh, I see: this
>one's the goddess of sex and this one's the goddess of...  sex."  Making a
>distinction between "fertility" and "hedonism" still basically defines
>women solely around their ability to have sex, perpetuating an image which
>our own culture seems not to have shaken off.  I am somewhat disappointed
>that, tens of thousands of years from now in a world whose social
>structure is completely different, so many things stay the same and so few
>people appear to question it.

Looking at Avanthe as simply a sex goddess is a very simplistic way of 
viewing her.  Avanthe is about family, agriculture, sisterhood, crafts, 
fertility, forces of nature, and so much more.  She is the closest to 
the 'Mother Earth' goddess worshipped by Neolithic man. Sure, sex is 
part of that, but so is breadmaking and rainstorms. To see Avanthe as 
a just another sex goddess is to sell her short. 

Now, sure. Dlamelish is about sex. Pleasure. The here and now. Hedonism. 
Can you think of a force in human nature that is more powerful? 

Tekumel is an ancient, traditional, conservative society. People have 
certain roles that society dictates you will fulfill, much like 
Earth's history. At least, it pressures you to fulfill them. The role 
of women is very similar to the role of women in most of Earth history: 
family, clan, child-bearing, arranged marriage for political reasons, 
cooking, sewing, etc., etc. In return for this second-class role, the 
clan will protect women from the rest of society. Now, enter 'Aridani' 
status. A women gives up the paternal protection of the clan to become, 
in the eyes of the law, the same status as a man. The same rights and 
obligations. They can be sued for Shamtla. They can be put in prison or 
impaled for crimes. The clan will back them up, just like any man, but 
there are limits.

I find this system much superior to the medieval European system, where 
the options for women were *much* more limited. 

I find the societies, religions, etc. of Tekumel to be composed of 
elements of real human nature, not just the pubescent fantasies of 
males. Many strong women I know love the Tsolyani society because of 
the freedoms afforded to women who choose to take them.
---
Robert Dushay writes...

I wanted to add to the discussion on how women are portrayed on Tekumel
raised by Geoffrey McVey and Chris.  I see three main points:

1. Attitudes about sex are essentially adolescent male ones ("...remarkably
immature...")
2. Women do not appear except as sexual objects for men.
3. The pictures show too much female skin and not enough male skin.

Chris is 100% about the last point.  We've covered it ;-) and there's not
much more to say about it.

While Geoffrey is right that the sexual mores of the Five Empires are very
libertine, I don't think see this as a problem.  I'm not an anthropologist,
but different societies have different attitudes about sex, and it's freer
in some cultures than others.  Sexual attitudes in some South Pacific
cultures appear to be more relaxed than here in the USA, the ancient Romans
were notorious for their attitudes about sex, and even here in the USA,
there have been times and subcultures where women are more casual about
sex.  Given freely available contraceptives (Lisutl root) which removes the
risk of unwanted pregnancy, millenia to separate sex from reproduction, and
the complete disappearance of modern religions and mores, I would not be
surprised to see a much more casual attitude about sex.

The second point is potentially more offensive, but Chris is right on the
money here.  It's up to the referee, and to a lesser degree, the players,
as to how women are portrayed.  Geoffrey thinks that Aridani exist mainly
to allow men a cheap thrill, but I have known a few women who play Tekumel,
and they generally gravitate toward Aridani.  I've known darned few men who
care to play female characters.  I have also seen Aridani characters in
some of the background material who are not merely window dressing.  The
Lady Deq Dimani from Flamesong in particular is a strong and tough
character.

Yes, some of the postings are not especially enlightened, and I wouldn't be
proud to show them to my wife.  However, that's not the way I run my game. 
In fact, in the one scenario I've written since high school that involves
sex, the NPC women who are falling all over one of the PC men could just as
easily be NPC men falling all over a PC woman, and in fact, that exact
role-reversal happened at one convention.

[Moderator's Note:  My wife liked the limericks...  :-)                    ]

Geoffrey wanted to know how Aridani are actually portrayed.  I mainly write
adventures for convention use, so my characters are pre-generated.  I don't
typically create Aridani ones because 90% of the players who sign up are
male, but if a woman joins the game, she is given the option to make her
character female.  An Aridani character is treated exactly like a male
character: she commands her own destiny and makes her own choices.  In
Tsolyani society as I portray it, an Aridani is also treated exactly like a
man, and no notice is paid to her gender whatsoever. 

Like any RPG, we get out what we put in. Tekumel is unique in this regard
for mentioning sex at all--most RPGs sanitize it away and pretend that the
woman bursting out of her chain mail pasties on the cover of the box has
nothing to do with what's going on in the game.  If we're going to point
fingers at Tekumel for poor portrayals of women, then few in the
role-playing hobby escape, and a good deal of science fiction and fantasy
writing must also be tarred.

--Bob Dushay

[Moderator's Note:   Chain mail pasties...  I'll have to remember that.  ]

-----
William Nock writes...   

I thought Geoffrey McVey's comments were rather childish and rather odd. 
Odd enough for me to actually comment!  It looked like one of those rather
politically correct attempts to be "mature".  To present our present era as
uniquely sexist when it's given women more freedom (if less respect) than
almost any era in history.  (And I question strongly whether it's a good
idea but that has nothing to do with it.)  What goddesses have there been
whose religion could be said not to have revolved around sex?

The thing that struck me as most absurd though was his request that people
not have slaves in the game.  Does he have no idea of roleplaying?  Is
political correctness so total it should permeate our games!!?  The whole
point of roleplaying is to be different and explore different situations
and fantasy.  Should we roleplay reality?

-----
Gordon Neff writes...

Mr McVey:

With regard to your comments:
Though it places me at grave risk of giving offense, sir, I am forced to
say that I have heard few observations more provincial and Grundyish than
yours in a good many years.

"...Tekumel has its own characteristics which can -- and should -- give
those people playing in the setting reason to be uncomfortable."

Oh, -should- they indeed. How so, sir? Because -you- are made
uncomfortable? Clearly you are, but I see no other, nor better reason
expressed for the discomfort we are also expected to feel on your behalf.

It would not "be unfair to impose the standards of late 20th century North
America" upon Tekumel; it would be utterly -absurd-. Great pains have been
taken throughout to illustrate the fundamental psychological differences
that exist in this non-Western culture.

Mark me, sir: It is NOT a Western culture. It is you who attempt to apply
the standards of that society-- of some factions within that society,
merely-- to the societies overall depicted here; the resulting discomfort
and confusion you encounter are understandable. (As is the concomitant
prurient myopia which cannot distinguish among the Tsolyani pantheon,
beyond discerning that 'sex' is involved somewhere in it.)

It is beyond the scope of this message board to make you aware of the
patterns of life which have existed across the globe for uncounted
millenia, with the present-day industrialized West as the sole and deeply
peculiar exception. The (presumably) 'mature attitude toward women' you
base your judgements upon, sir, is considered a bizarre source of unending
misery for men and women alike by the entire rest of the inhabited world--
and judging by the statistics on depression, alcoholism, suicide, rape, &c.
in present-day America, I think this majority opinion can not be discounted
so blithely.

(It's entertaining to think of what violently allergic reactions
18th-century Europe would arouse in you. All those country lasses "doin
what comes nat'rally" without a concern beyond the pleasure of the moment--
why, how very -immature- of them!)

"I am somewhat disappointed that, tens of thousands of years from now in a
world whose social structure is completely different, so many things stay
the same and so few people appear to question it."

You have my sympathies, sir: There seems to be a disappointing lack of
debate on the distinctions between night and day, as well. It would be
uncharitable, I suppose, to suggest that the perceived -need- for any such
'questioning' is the truly debatable issue...

I have two suggestions, Mr McVey. Your own confession that you know next
to nothing about the Aridani points to the first and most obvious one:
Learn the subject you pronounce judgment upon. (Including the Tsolyani
pantheon, while you're about it.)

But in the meanwhile, if your definition of 'maturity' requires a
population of bizarre, brittle, emotionally unstable 'mock-men' on the
American model, women who bitterly regret and resent what they are, and
that they live in a human society which has not "shaken off" this
fundamental recognition...

Why, then by all means produce it!-- if you can overlook the inconvenience
that no other generation in human history, in America or anywhere else in
the world, would regard them as anything but frustrated, bitter and lonely
victims of a truly odd social structure.


Yours, etc.,

G J N
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//783

[Moderator's Note:  Scott Maxwell asks about the Undying Wizards, and the ]
[                   Professor provides quite a bit of info.               ]
[   Ladies and Gents: Thanks for hanging with me this past month.  We     ]
[                     replaced all our network infrastructure equipment   ]
[                     last friday and came up by Saturday, but had a lin- ]
[                     gering problem on my remote campus.  We looked for  ]
[                     all week last week, 20 hour days trying to trouble- ]
[                     shoot it, and found the problem yesterday.  Every-  ]
[                     thing is up now, and seems to be working well.  I do]
[                     have some other stuff to do in preparation for the  ]
[                     start of school, but I should be able to dribble out]
[                     some stuff over the next few days.  This is a great ]
[                     article on the Undying Wizards.  Thanks Phil!       ]

>These beings have been mentioned a lot, but I don't believe that there has
>been any published material covering these beings.  Who and what are they?
>Are they a "class" of wizard or could any magic user "graduate" to their
>level.  Are they a unified bunch working towards a single goal?  Please
>give me more info.

You're correct; there is no lengthy description of the Undying Wizards, the
College at the End of Time, and other features of the Further Planes. When
I first set out to publish "Empire of the Petal Throne," I realised that
many complexities had to be simplified -- perhaps totally dropped, perhaps
issued later as follow-up booklets, etc.

I thus put "Empire of the Petal Throne" out as "Introductory Tekumel." It
deals with the contemporary situation, particularly in Tsolyanu.
"Intermediate Tekumel" might include localised planetary developments, such
as the Undying Wizards, the College, and some of the "nearer" Planes
Beyond. "Advanced Tekumel" then could go on to treat the Further Planes,
the struggles between the Gods (and certain of the Pariah Deities), the
denizens of the Pylons, the strategems and grand planning of forces on
several sides, etc. etc. There could even be a "Post-Graduate Tekumel," but
this is best left undescribed.

Some of the Wizards of "Intermediate Tekumel" are mentioned in the various
sourcebooks: elderly, bald-pated Thomar, Subadim the Fisherman of Skeins,
Hagarr of Paranta, etc. Others are not well known outside of my personal
games: e.g. the devious Thuken; beautiful, but violent and impetuous
Sarvodaya Di'ela; Turshanmu the Klutz; Ardza the Inimical Beast of Hosts,
etc. Each of these has his or her (or its) peculiarities and personality;
each is the defender of a particular point of view, sometimes
straightforward (e.g. Thomar = Stability) and sometimes contradictory and
distorted (e.g. Sarvodaya = Change? the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Others of
the Pariah Deities? Her own selfish desires?). Each  has a role and duties
on Tekumel. These "wizards" are not just free scholars, who can doze in
libraries and teach and enjoy their perogatives, as some players have
wished. They are busy people, with projects, schedules, and goals. They are
*not* there just to offer magical devices and information to the players'
characters. They may help on occasion, but at other times they refuse aid
because they can see problems further down the Road of Time. They travel up
and down time and skip from one Plane to another, as a monkey swings
through the trees of the forest.

The College is, of course, a much later form of Avanthar, built in the same
locale with much the same setting, but at the End of Time, far in the
future when the sun is always about to set, and the skies are a soft red
and dull gold. The place is called a "College," but there are no classes,
curricula, or degrees. It is a "college" in the older, mediaeval sense: a
haven for scholars. Its libraries are vast, containing the essentials of
all human history. The librarians have no idea where specific books are,
however, because, like mediaeval libraries, there is no catalogue system.

The College teems with people and creatures from many worlds, including
Tekumel itself. These students study, work under this or that tutor, and
are given projects of their own. Some of these projects are designed for
Tekumel, while others are meant to operate on the worlds of the Planes
Beyond. The system is quite complicated, involving many points of view and
conflicting objectives.

Most player characters (in my experience) are not suitable for enrollment
in the College because they are still too human, too greedy and
self-centred, and too limited in perspective to be productive in such an
environment. A yen for "magic items" and "secrets" does not make a
candidate a good student.

The Wizards and the College are widely known in my campaigns. My players
are now accomplished "Intermediate Tekumel" players. Some have moved on to
the lower stages of "Advanced Tekumel." Many have met some of the Wizards
and taken part in adventures on other Planes. Some have even allowed old
Turshanmu to cast spells affecting them -- ask Eyloa about fried eggs, or
others about Turshanmu's  "Pink Goo." Ask Arumel about the whimsical
Sarvodaya Di'ela, or ask him what happened to his own daughter when he left
her alone at the College for too long.  Ask Sanjesh about his lovely bride,
Ais. There are too many adventures and details here ever to record n full!

The Planes Beyond are tremendously confusing: an infinity of closely
similar Planes (e.g. on this one you sneeze, on that one you do not), with
interlinking nexus points that usually take a traveller *away* from his
goal (like putting a blind child into New York City without a map and
telling him to find his way home) and are fraught with danger. Thomar
describes the Planes as a great tree, with one central trunk (the main
time-line) and an infinity of limbs, branches, leaves, etc. Layers of the
Many Planes are like the rings in the trunk of a tree. On one "limb"
Mirusiya is Emperor; on another Hirkane is not dead; on a third, Ma'in
Kruthai rules and has turned the palace into a resort for Dlamelish
worshippers; on still another, the Hokun dominate a lonely planet of Ssu to
which humankind never came. If one wants to know more (but not all), one
must seek Waba, the author of the Periplus of the Planes. He's a pretty
good guide, though not always infallible.

I hope that this much will serve, at least temporarily. I don't usually go
into these aspects of Tekumel. There are enough complexities as it is; even
in the familiar Five Empires, even in Jakalla or Tumissa or Bey Su; no need
to wander far afield in order to find things to do, any more than one needs
to know the street plan of Tenochtitlan in order to analyse American
political campaigns. I hope I live long enough to get at least *some* of
this down in writing. My players know much about the "Intermediate" level,
however, and can act as guides.  A few are experienced in certain nearer
regions of the Planes Beyond, such as Sanjesh, whose friend, Horodai, is a
demon -- but a friendly one.

Enjoy. Watch out for little old men who want to "borrow" chalk or a candle
in order to make a spell.

Phil
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//784

[Moderator's Note:  An urgent notice from Joe Saul.  Sorry I didn't get it out]
[                   prior to the weekend, Joe.                                ]

We're going to put the U*Con Pre-Registration Book out soon, so I wanted
to post another call for Tekumel events for the Tekumel Track.  So far we
have:

*  three seminars -- What is Tekumel? (for beginning players and others
   who want to discuss the basics), Running a Successful Tekumel Campaign
   (discussion group for current and prospective Tekumel GMs), and The
   Gods Will Answer It For You (advanced questions, with Prof. Barker via
   speakerphone).  Each an hour long.

*  one miniatures event (I haven't gotten the details yet)

*  three "normal" role-playing events (meaning, you sit around a table and
   play your characters), one of which will be *very* dark

*  two free-form/live events -- in one of them, you play military officers
   facing a difficult border situation; the other I won't describe yet
   (but Prof. Barker has agreed to put in a guest appearance by
   speakerphone)

Comments?  Care to add anything to the list?  We'll be taking events up
until the con itself, but if you want to get into the Pre-Reg book for
sure, I'll need your event by Tuesday evening or so.

And if you're sure you're coming, but *don't* plan to run anything, please
let me know that too!  I'm trying to estimate a head count so I know how
many slots we need at any given time.

Again:  U*Con is November 20-22, in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  Friday runs
6pm-midnight; Saturday 9am-midnight; Sunday 9am-8pm.  (And the big
free-form is Sunday morning-afternoon, so try not to schedule departing
flights too early...)

Joe Saul
U*Con Tekumel Track Coordinator
jmsaul@umich.edu
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//785

[Moderator's Note:  Welcome back.  Sorry for the delays.  I have 5 messages]
[                   going out today, and 5 a day for the next few days.  I ]
[                   hope to keep up that rate for the near future.  Joe    ]
[                   Saul comments on the N'luss message.                   ]

>moment. How many people in the United States are physically larger than their
>parents and grandparents? I stand 6' 6", towering over all but two of my
>relatives. I'd like think that genetics has something to do with that, but I
>also know that my diet contains more proteins, fats, and vitamins than my
>previous generation's diet did. The better the food you eat, the healthier you
>are, as far as dieticians are concerned. Granted, heart disease and other
>things can also be linked to richer diets....

Adding a comment here:  don't underestimate the effects of diet on size.
Those effects, however, are not inheritable.  (Okay.  They could be in one
sense.  In a population that consistently has poor access to nutrition, you
could see selection for smaller members who can use the available food more
efficiently.  Once the population can get to food, that selection pressure
would disappear.  But that's not what I'm talking about.)

For a dramatic example, look at the size of average Japanese people today.
Then look at their grandparents.  That's what a shift from poor diet to
excessive diet can do over one intervening generation.  When my father lived
in Boston in the 50s, he says that the ambulance sirens ran all night in
Chinatown -- not due to gang violence or crime, but due to *miscarriages*.
What happens when a Chinese national, used to getting by on a limited diet,
makes it to the US and then becomes pregnant?  The kid is so much bigger that
he/she can't be delivered normally.  *That's* how dramatic the size
difference is.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//786

[Moderator's Note:  Many more wrote in to discuss the old gamers thread.  ]

Paul Mason writes...
>Perhaps we can think together of a more "mature" thing to do with the
>Tekumel world creation than RPGs. 
>I have no suggestions, by the way. 
>But I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this matter as to
>what us "post-gamers" can do with our Tekumel interests. 
>
>In the meantime, keep posting, please. 
>Maybe internet discussions are the thing that us "post-gamers" should be
>doing. 

I know that actually mentioning games in the Blue Room is not really the 
thing to do, but this stream of messages has finally provoked me. The 
above message makes explicit an idea that has been bubbling under for a 
while: basically that old chestnut about RPGs being 'immature'. It's obvious 
that certain people never managed to shake off their embarrassment at 
playing the things.

I would like to suggest that 'post-gamers' are merely unfortunates, akin to 
those people who lose the interest in music they had in their youth, and 
settle for leaving Phil Collins CDs on their coffee tables. They have my 
sympathies (I've been unable to get a game together myself, at times).

However, to suggest that Tekumel is somehow 'better served' by being the 
topic of coffee table discussions, rather than living and breathing in the form 
of an environment for one of the very few genuinely participatory and 
creative forms of entertainment is so much chlen dung.

The possibilities of RPGs are a long way from being exhausted, and 
Tekumel, as the continued interest of the post-gamers demonstrates, is a 
compelling (and real) environment which suits them perfectly. Which would 
you prefer, a network across the world of people creatively sharing 
Tekumel as a consensual reality, or a Disney movie called Dhich'une? 

I would suggest that Tekumel is best experienced in the form of a weekly 
session. That way the feeling that you actually _live_ there is enhanced: 
every adventure doesn't have to be the recovery of one of the Keys to the 
Blue Room or somesuch. This certainly works for my weekly game even 
though it is set in some non-existent place called 'Song Dynasty China' (It 
was Tekumel before that, and will be again, I hope).

In short, _being_ a part of Tekumel is better than merely talking about it.
--
Best wishes
Paul Mason
----

Joe Saul writes...
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, The Blue Room Mailing List wrote:

>[Moderator's Note:  Peter Huston adds some more thoughts to the old gamers ]
>[                   thread.                                                ]
>  
>Perhaps we can think together of a more "mature" thing to do with the
>Tekumel world creation than RPGs. 

The general tone of Peter's post saves this (though just barely) from being a
Shamtla-able insult to those of us who *do* still enjoy gaming.  Peter, I
know you didn't mean it that way, but...


>I have no suggestions, by the way. 
>But I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this matter as to
>what us "post-gamers" can do with our Tekumel interests. 

Actually, I do have a suggestion.  You can *write* about Tekumel -- either
for online publication or (hint, hint) for The Seal of the Imperium, the
paper Fanzine Carl Brodt is editing and publishing and I'm designing and
laying out. Nothing immature about writing articles and short stories, no
matter how you cut it... ;-)

(And you're still welcome to come to UCon and kibitz, or participate in
 seminars on Tekumel.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
---

Peter Gifford writes...
>Perhaps we can think together of a more "mature" thing to do with the
>Tekumel world creation than RPGs.
>I have no suggestions, by the way.
>But I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this matter as to
>what us "post-gamers" can do with our Tekumel interests.

I find this an interesting thread because, despite putting a lot of time
into creating my Tekumel site, I haven't actually played in the world of
Tekumel since I was in school (about16 years ago). So my interest in the
world is purely from the point of view of a fascination with its culture
and wealth of detail.

I've worked on a couple of computer game prototypes (a post apocalyptic
world game called 'Tunnelvision' and a simulation set in the period of the
Crusades), and long harboured dreams of producing a lavish illustrated book
- I grew up on Roger Dean's "Views", the work of Patrick Woodroffe -
especially "The Pentateuch of the Cosmogony", and the works of Rodney
Matthews, the kind of works that are somewhat unfashionable now. However
recent successes in this field (for example "Dinotopia", a big hit with
adults and children alike) have shown me that there is still a big market
for this kind of rich illustrated fantasy. And of course computer games are
a flourishing industry; just look at the success of "Myst" and "Riven".

So it seems to me that Tekumel is an ideal position to expand into these
media, and reach a 'mass audience'. The wealth of material is there, it's
just that role-playing gamers are still a relatively small part of the
general public, and Tekumel isn't reaching the people it could. Tekumel is
an incredibly visual world - Professor Barker, and I'm sure many people on
this list, can "see" it in there mind's eye. So let me - run 'em up on the
flagpole and see if anyone salutes them, nick well known ideas and lay 'em
out as mine, set the table and see if anyone sits down to eat, shoot me
down in flames if you will - present three ideas for bringing Tekumel to
the real world. I invite comments from those on the list:

1. The Tekumel Coffee Table Book.
A lavish, fully illustrated hard cover book that details the fascinating
world of Tekumel, for example in the form of a travelogue, a Mihalli's
notebook, a lost diary from a pocket dimension, a children's book (followed
by an adult version if enough interest is generated), an illustrated story
...

2. The Tekumel CD-ROM Omnipedia.
A 'omnipedia' detailing the world of Tekumel - a language primer, cultural
and political examination, multimedia exploration with 3D animated movies,
whatever. Perhaps hosted by a 3D character from the world. Just as an thing
of interest or perhaps treating the user like a young clan member or
foreigner being introduced to Tekumel.

3. The Tekumel CD-ROM Game.
A fascinating, graphically detailed and exciting adventure in the world of
Tekumel, created in 3D (with perhaps live action as well). The first of a
series perhaps, following the adventures of a certain character? I know
someone who is just completing a CDROM game called "Riddle of the Sphinx"
(http://www.sphinx3d.com/) vaguely interested in this concept; we've
discovered  we have complementary graphic styles, though his work is far
ahead of mine in concept and execution! I recommend a look at his site by
the way - its a lavish and beautiful recreation of the Sphinx and the
Pyramids in 3D.

Maybe these ideas are 'pie in the sky', and the obvious question is 'where
would the money come from?', but then Myst was just a twinkle in the Rand
Brothers' eyes at one stage, and Tekumel has a wealth of material that
makes the Myst mythos look like a school project! People on this list could
contibute ideas to the development of a proposal that could, using
everybody's connections, be seen by the right people, and maybe one day
become a reality.

Personally I think the time has come for Tekumel to be brought to a wider
audience, and for that to happen it must move beyond the role-playing world
and embrace other mediums. What do you think?

Best regards,
Peter Gifford
PS Please note my email address is in the painful process of changing to
"head@universalhead.com.au". I posted the old one on my website change of
address message. Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter Gifford
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tekumel: The World of the Petal Throne
Complex Cultures on an Imaginary World
http://www.universalhead.com.au/tekumel
---

Gordon Neff writes...
>Perhaps we can think together of a more "mature" thing to do with the
>Tekumel world creation than RPGs. 
>I have no suggestions, by the way. 
>But I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this matter as to
>what us "post-gamers" can do with our Tekumel interests. 

The only thing I could see right off, considering the Tekumeli
visual emphasis, is to produce TRULY MAGNIFICENT COSTUMES for convention
use. (Or 'dress down Fridays,' if you want to become a living legend...)

'Course, I've done theatre, so I can see how that might go.
Otherwise... Well, y' know, I once sat down and started to actually -learn-
Tsolyani; Prof Barker's published materials allow you to actually do that,
and I was making progress, too, until other events caused me to switch my
efforts to Russian.

But if you're the kind of person who does the little 'cryptoquote'
in the daily newspaper just for fun, learning to handle complex, truly
ALIEN grammatical forms is addictively challenging.

G.
---
Ian Young writes...
>Gordon Neff writes...

>Perhaps we can think together of a more "mature" thing to do with the
>Tekumel world creation than RPGs. 
>I have no suggestions, by the way. 
>But I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on this matter as to
>what us "post-gamers" can do with our Tekumel interests. 

It occurs to me that most people here on this list are, indeed, doing the more
"mature" thing -- taking the internal experience of Tekumel to a correspondence
format.

I've noticed myself that, as I get older and more serious about frivolous
things like student loan payments, marriage, mortgage, etc., I find myself with
little time for gaming.  The rare occasion that I do get my friends together
for an evening of gaming quickly devolves into a pleasant evening of drinking
and topical discussion.  Shame on us, huh?

However, I do find time to follow a couple of discussion lists, and to
participate in them to varying degrees of enthusiasm.  I suspect most people
here are of much the same mind.  What I'd suggest as a "mature" evolution of
topical interest in the fantasy world of Tekumel is to create a persona for
yourself and correspond with another such persona.  Find yourself a Tekumelani
pen-pal.

What am I talking about?  Here are a couple of ideas:

- Your infantry unit has been stationed in the Chakas for a month now.  Write
home to your clan-brothers in Jakalla to tell them about the forests,
skirmishes with the Mu'ugalavyani, run-ins with the Pe Choi.

- Your recent assignment as a research liason for the Temple of Ksarul in
Jakalla has proven more gruelling than you had anticipated.  Write to your
clan-brother in the Chakas to let him know what you've been up to.

- Courtly life in Bey Su as a diplomat/courtier has your head spinning.  Write
to an old friend from your early days as a lowly infantryman on the Yan Korani
front.

- War is over and commerce is booming!  When you have a free moment on the
merchant caravan, write home to your clansmen or friends to tell them how
business is.

I think you all get the idea.  Find someone online, let each other know who
your Tekumeli persona is, and simply write a letter in character every now and
then to let them know how you are and what you've been up to.  Don't be afraid
to be mundane, as, curiously enough, many times it's those "mundane" accounts
that are described most vividly.  And don't be afraid to get outrageous at
times, either, because Tekumel is an especially exotic place to live.

If anyone wishes to correspond with their old clan-cousin (or friend) in
Jakalla, Emelu hiSrivaratsu, Golden Sphere clan, mid-level funerary attendant
of Belkhanu, just remind me who you are, and we'll set the runners running with
a little correspondence.  Contact Emelu via me at <idyoung@seanet.com>.

Alternately, if you want to be set up with a Tekumelani pen-pal, but can't
figure out how to do it yourself, drop me a line at the above e-mail address,
and I'll try pairing you up someone of the same clan/city/unit/race/whatever. 
Oh, and tell me how many people you'd like to correspond with.  ***BEWARE*** 
Your e-mail address will likely be given to a total stranger.

Gone,
Ian...er...Emelu hiSrivaratsu
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//787

[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker answers a question about the Temple of]
[                   Jneksha'a from Charles Martin.                         ]

>In IMJ II 1 (Fall 2358 A.S.) there is a reference to a map series for the
>Pass of Skulls, complementing the Northwest Frontier set.  Does this exist,
>perhaps in remnants that could be released to the FTP site?

Six maps of the north*east* frontier were done, going from Sunraya and
Tleku Miriya over to Saa Allaqi. These large maps (same size as the maps
for the North*west* frontier) were supposed to be published but never made
it. Keith Dalluhn also worked on the gazetteer for them, but I don't
recall that he ever finished it. I have a set of these maps, but they are
too big to be scanned in -- not with my little scanner! Otherwise I have no
objection if somebody wants to look at them or even put them into some
usable electronic format.

>How about an update on the release schedule for Mitlanyal?

Ask Bob.

>Now for a "real" question:
>
>Northwest Frontier, Hex 4604, the Temple of Jneksha'a: This is a combined
>temple and monastery to Jneksha'a, one of the demons of Lord Vimuhla.  It
>is still held by the Tsolyani, although the Mu'ugalavyani have laid seige
>to it several times since 2360. [c.2358 A.S.]
>
>My question is, what would be the likely fate of this or any other such
>temple or monastery were it to be taken over by the Mu'ugalavyani?  Would
>the religious icons, statues, and trappings be thrown down, would the
>Mu'ugalavyani send their own priests of Vimuhla to take up residence, or
>would current ascetics perhaps be allowed to continue on?  Would Tsolyani
>inscriptions be rubbed out and replaced with similar passages in
>Mu'ugalavyani?  Etc.

The Mu'ugalavyani slowly began the many tasks connected with establishing
the rituals and social life of the temple. They did not destroy the
trappings or execute the priests; they simply added some of their own. They
began to use their own vestments and religious icons, and they brought in a
contingent of their own clergy. Those Tsolyani priests who did not wish to
stay under the new regime were politely encouraged to go home. After all,
they, too, are devoted to the Flame Lord, and since they were
noncombatants, it would be "ignoble" to sacrifice them or mistreat them. It
might have been different if the Mu'ugalavyani commander had been a true
devotee and the temple were dedicated instead to Lord Hnalla, Lord Sarku,
or even Lord Ksarul (etc.). Mostly, commanders who seize cities, temples,
etc. occupied by adherents of other faiths try to lean a little over
backwards to display "nobility": no massacres, pogroms, religious
persecutions, etc. There *have* been such, but then nobody is perfect...

As far as I know, the temple to Jneksha'a is still there, cranking out
reams of Mu'ugalavyani translations of Engsvanyali texts taken  from its
library. Various scholars continue to visit it, and local pilgrims have now
got used to the new owners. The language of many of the rituals is now
Mu'ugalavyani.

>In a broader context, what happens when military or political actions
>overflow religious institutions?  Since the tenants of Pavar's thought and
>iconography are somewhat cross-cultural, are there particular cases of
>continuity of worship or devotions even in the face of repeated shifts of
>"secular" allegiance?

There are many examples of such continuity. Even the Pariah Deities
continue to be worshipped, within certain contexts, many years after they
were "expunged." They have *secret* shrines in most of the great Tsolyani
cities, although the Mu'ugalavyani and Salarvyani have been more
industrious in ousting them. Yan Kor has an unstated, inconsistent policy
of live and let live, while Livyanu's religious tenets are simply not known
outside the great temples.

Most of the deities of the Five Empires originate from Pavar's Engsvanyali
pantheon, of course, which means that *real* discontinuities rarely arise.
Replace a temple of Hru'u in a given city with a powerful temple of -- say
-- Karakan, and you'll have some economic problems, personal upsets, and
rearrangements of clans and officialdom, but yet Hru'u belongs to the same
"god-squad" as Karakan, and people know what to expect.  Even the gods of Yan
Kor and old Mihallu are more similar to the Tsolyani pantheon than not.
There are interesting variations, of course.

As a side note, I doubt whether the Tsolyani could ever comprehend the
sectarian strife in northern Ireland. Protestants and Catholics are
doctrinally quite close (I am sure there are many of us who cannot even
name the differences), and historical/political hostilities on Tekumel tend
to become vague and disappear with time. In view of the long time spans of
Tekumelani history, it is likely that even serious atrocities will
eventually be forgotten. Note that the Jewish people are still strongly
interested in and motivated against the "Holocaust" of the Second World
War, but no Jewish person whom I know would pay such attention to the
"Holocaust" perpetrated upon the Jews by the Romans in 70 A.C. and
thereafter: massacres, expulsion from Palestine, destruction of the Temple,
etc. Those ancient events are still remembered and commemorated, certainly,
but without the same intensity of "emotional baggage,"  On Tekumel, the
invasions of the Dragon Warriors are similarly "history" and not a cause
for hatred and violence any more.

The "Concordat" makes it hard (or rather hard*ER*) to persecute worshippers
of other faiths. This treaty is sometimes not honoured (and secretly
violated), but it does stand as a bulwark against divisive forces that
would rip apart the fabric of society. It may not work very well, but the
clergy of all the temples find it useful -- after all, what you do to
followers of other deities today may be done to you by other folks
tomorrow. "Noble Action" offers a solution that just happens to also have a
self-serving purpose.

Regards,

Phil
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//788

[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker responds to James Maliszewski's question]
[                   about his Sanjesh.                                       ]

>The Sanjesh we dealt with in Khirgar was of the Vraisu lineage, a relation
>of Artukka, the clanmaster of Golden Dawn clan. The clan-girl Sanjesh was to
>marry was named Dletana hiViriktani, a young and talented woman nevertheless
>without prospects of marriage to someone of a higher clan. Of course, there
>are those in Khirgar who suggested that Golden Sunburst gained as much from
>this marriage as did the mid-ranked Golden Dawn, namely access to a trading
>network to sell the undistinguished wines that are the personal project of
>its clanmaster, Mirgan hiDolumesa.

>Do you know any of these people?

Yes, they are people I have heard of but don't know personally. My
experiences in Khirgar are rather short and limited, so this is not
surprising. I *think* I once did meet Mirgan hiDolumesa at a party for
Prince Eselne there some years ago. Even then he was going on and on about
his wines. People privately suggested that no criticism or comment should
be made, lest he take it ill. I kept my mouth shut. Somebody else commented
that "a good, sweet wine is like a scarlet hymn to Lord Kakaran," which
pleased Mirgan greatly, although the reference was left ambiguous.

Regards,

Phil
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//789

[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker answers a question for James Maliszewski.]

I am wondering how there can be a subterranean complex beneath the *fens*
of Komore -- unless it is all underwater, in which case the matter could
only arise if the Ssu are growing *underwater* plants. ??? There are one or
two places, however, where the underlying hard basalt reaches above the
surface -- islands of hardness rising out of a soggy morass. There are
caves and ancient Engsvanyali villas on the tops of some of these "islands"
-- these were the very tops of little islands before Ganga sank. Try
looking there.

>I have received a report from a group of Khirgari adventurers currently
>operating out of Khirgar that they have uncovered a subterranean "farm" of
>the Food of the Ssu in a cavern complex beneath the fens of Komore. This
>farm seems to have been deliberately cultivated by unknown persons for
>unknown purposes. There was likewise evidence of harvesting the Food,
>although there were no signs of either the harvesters or the diabolical
>"farmers" who maintained it all.
>
>Has anyone else ever encountered such an unusual phenomena? If so, why would
>anyone purposely grow the Food given all of the risks involved?

Growing the Food of the Ssu is *illegal* and punishasble by death in
Tsolyanu. The Ssu, however, sometimes use "stopover" points on long
journeys by tubeway car. You may have encountered one of their "railway
dining car" installations! I doubt whether any other species is involved.
Not even the Pygmy Folk love the Ssu. The Shunned Ones are unconcerned (and
don't eat the Food of the Ssu anyhow), and the Hluss are too far away. No
human would dare to "help" the Ssu -- they themselves would soon fillet him
and spread him around as fertiliser!

Take care.

Regards,
Phil
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//790

[Moderator's Note:  Joe Saul asks for a refinement of an answer the     ]
[                   Professor provided to a question about addressing   ]
[                   officers.                                           ]

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, The Blue Room Mailing List wrote:
 
> Address is by title: "Kasi" ("Captain"), "Molkar" ("Major" -- more or
> less), "Dritlan" ("Colonel" -- more or less), "Kerdu" ("General"), etc.
> These can each have the honorific endings "-koi" and on occasion other
> honorifics: e.g. "Kerdudalisakoi" ("Great and powerful General").

Is there an equivalent of "Sir", such as using the "speaking to a superior"
pronoun without specific mention of rank?  If so, is it considered ruder or
more appropriate than using the rank itself?

(I ask in part because I recently read that addressing an officer by rank
 in the US military -- "Yes, Captain" as opposed to "Yes, Sir" -- is mildly
 insulting, though nothing you can get in trouble for.  Addressing one by
 rank and name -- "Good Morning, Major Smith" -- is apparently okay.)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//791

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff comments on the Professor's answer about maps.]

>If a "better" map is wanted, the Tsolyani draw a picture: a stylised
>portrayal of a town, etc., with figures of its residents drawn in here and
>there; cf. the box cover of the original EPT. As far as I know, there are
>no maps (either like ours or theirs) of "scenery": i.e. a "map" of a
>seacoast or mountain range that is made just to display terrain. The
>Tsolyani merchant clans require line/circle maps for economic purposes and
>do not decorate them much. The "picture maps" are for upper class clansmen
>who want to "see" what a given city looks like and who lives where in it.

Ah-hah!

Does the term 'sand table' strike a chord? It's not just the nobles
and merchants who want to 'see' what they're dealing with: Generals and
other High Command staff have pressing need to know EXACTLY what they're
facing in terms of terrain.

There might not be continental relief maps (-you- essay the project
of making one. Extra credit: Invent aeroplanes for the purpose) but I'd
bet, especially after all this time, that there are downright cunning
model-makers applying the principles of architectural drafting, perspective
geometry, &c., to the creation of truly stunning 'architectural models' in
sculpted clay spanning a good many scale Tsan across.

'Course, what happens afterward to such efforts in
three-dimensional mapping is anyone's guess... including a shrewd
referee... (Tell -me- it wouldn't auction for a good price!)

G.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//792

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff comments on the Religious Items question.   ]

Subject: Message 781: Religious Items

You know, here's another nice thing about the setup here. In a way,
this could be an illustration for the 'Beginning Referee' debate as well.

I mean, look at it:     
>I'm curious about some of the inspiration behind several of the drawings of
>religious paraphenalia and sacrifical items. Several of the sacrificial blades
>in the Book of Ebon Bindings look all the world like a Tibetan spirit dagger.
>Were these illustrated weapons based on Phurba's and their like? Also, do
>temples use sacrificial weapons like the ceremonial Kukris of the Ghurkas? It
>seems logical that something like this would be used for a larger animal
>sacrifice.

#No direct influence from Tibet that I know of --I probably read too many
#pulp fantasy novels during my formative years. I can't recall which ones
#produced these daggers.

#The temples of Chegarra and Karakan have "dedicated" swords that play a
#part in certain rituals, as well as serving as fighting weapons for the
#elite of their faiths...

&c., &c.

Now, my own reaction to this would be more akin to:

"Were these illustrated weapons based on Phurba's and their like?"

Yeah. Sure. It's as good an explanation as any, and it makes
illustrations available, yes?

"Also, do temples use sacrificial weapons like the ceremonial Kukris of the
Ghurkas?"

Hey, YOU're the referee. You tell ME. You likee, you have all-same, heya?

[Moderator's Note:  I think we have to remember that questions like this are]
[                   about the Professor's version of Tekumel.  Whether or   ]
[                   not we use that information in our versions of Tekumel. ]

"It seems logical that something like this would be used for a larger
animal sacrifice."

I agree. Go for it.

... Now Professor Barker, aside from being a lot more POLITE about
it all, responded with considered and detailed explanations of his own
reasoning instead.

("I probably read too many pulp fantasy novels during my formative
years." Right on, Prof: I've got the Aug 1948 'Famous Fantastic Mysteries'
right here, headlining John Taine's 'The Purple Sapphire,' with a cover
illo that'd be right on your beam.)

So you actually end up -learning more- his way than with my own
enforced-autonomy, sink-or-swim approach. That's not to say that my way is
any less VALID, y' dig: "There's no reason for MY Tekumel to be YOUR
Tekumel," the Professor says. Way I see it, if you decide that large
animals are to be STRANGLED (like, what was it, Mithras?) then, hey, who is
to say otherwise? They can make it different in THEIR version of events,
they want.

(That's why I brought up that business of linked semaphore-towers
some time back. Their existence made sense to -me-; if there was something
utterly preventative I missed, I wanted to know about it, was all.)

That's also why I haven't added anything directly to that
discussion of beginning referees: All I'd be doing is telling someone how
to set up one of MY campaigns, which aren't always to everyone's taste.

But then, what is?

G.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//793

[Moderator's Note:  George Hammond gives some possible sources for the Food]
[                   of the Ssu "farms" in James' message.                  ]

On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, The Blue Room Mailing List wrote:

>[Moderator's Note:  James Maliszewski seeks confirmation of a rumor.    ]
 
>I have received a report from a group of Khirgari adventurers currently
>operating out of Khirgar that they have uncovered a subterranean "farm" of
>the Food of the Ssu in a cavern complex beneath the fens of Komore. This
>farm seems to have been deliberately cultivated by unknown persons for
>unknown purposes. There was likewise evidence of harvesting the Food,
>although there were no signs of either the harvesters or the diabolical
>"farmers" who maintained it all.

>Has anyone else ever encountered such an unusual phenomena? If so, why would
>anyone purposely grow the Food given all of the risks involved?

I have not heard of such things anywhere but in the homeplaces of Ssu, and
would thus suspect the presence of the Enemies of Man first and foremost.
Perhaps there is something special to them about the kind of food growing
there, a vital nutriment or drug that can only be grown in Fenwaters. The
relationship between the Ssu and their Food can be complex and mysterious. 

That humans or non-inimical races would take such risks seems highly
unlikely (the penalty for detection would surely be extreme), but
possible.  Perhaps someone is harvesting the toxins?  An assasin clan? 
Given the incredibly painful effects of contacts with the Food, extracts
from them might be of value to some followers of Chiteng or Hrihayal as
well. 

Or perhaps the "farm" is part of some abstruse experiment by scholars with
more ambition than sense.  The Dark Trinity would seem to be especially
good candidates for something this dark and dangerous, but all temples
produce scholars of this kind.  Perhaps someone is trying to create an
antidote to the Food?

Whoever it is, it's not likely to be anyone nice...

George Hammond
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//794

[Moderator's Note:  William Nock comments on the Beginning Ref thread.     ]

I'm in a real commenting mood!  My deep sympathies to Peter Huston over the
Centaurs.  I'd have loved to play a Centaur with a herd.  (It's always
bothered me the way groups of players have non matching characters.  Like
in D&D - the party's so often an elf, a dwarf etc.  Other people are
parties of elves OR dwarves or whatever.)  But nobody offered me the chance
to play in a Centaur herd.  <snivel>  (Don't feel sorry for me.  I've
played lots of great games and I think the DM I play with is probably one
of the best in the world.  *smile*)

[Moderator's Note:  While this isn't specifically Tekumel, it is interesting.]
[                   Party mix is always of importance it seems in role play- ]
[                   ing games.  This is because a well balanced party always ]
[                   seems to have a better chance of success than a homog-   ]
[                   enous group.  A group of all fighters might be blown away]
[                   by a group of all mages (from a distance), on the other  ]
[                   hand the fighters might carve them up into shisk-kabob if]
[                   they caught them weakened from a battle, or were undetec-]
[                   ted until they attacked.  Of course, this mix allows for ]
[                   wonderful intra-party tension!  :)                       ]

William Nock
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//795

[Moderator's Note:  Ian Nicholson also has an experience with the Food of  ]
[                   the Ssu to share.                                      ]

In the late summer of 2356 a military contingent of the 17th Legion,
travelling from Khirgar to Purdimal, discovered evidence of the systematic
cultivation of Ssumani hidden among the fens to the south east of Komore.
The party had already made remarkably good time and its commander, a
charming man who was sadly I believe to die of illness during the stalemate
south of the Atkolel Heights a few years later, ordered a guard to be set on
the area.  A watch was kept for two days and nights but with no results.  By
great good fortune the then renowned magician Chiguresha of Si'is was
visiting a clan house in the vicinity and most courteously agreed to assist
the party.  Despite invocations, the like of which I have never seen since,
he too was unable to discover anything of value.  On the morning of the
third day the " fields "  were fired and the party resumed its journey
toward Purdimal.

I think the fens being neither quite land nor yet quite water must hold a
particular enchantment for we followers of change.  But certainly when
occasion led me to revisit the area in 2361 I saw no further evidence of the
food of the Ssu.  I was not, of course, looking underground.

I'm sorry not to be more helpful but I presume that the Kasi would have
filed a report when we arrived in Purdimal.  2356 was naturally a year of
great mobilisations against our friends in the north so I have no idea
whether the matter was ever subsequently investigated in any great detail.

With best wishes,
Ian Nicholson
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//796

[Moderator's Note:  James Maliszewski updates us on his web site.         ]

My Tekumel website, the Jade Arch, continues to grow despite my
dissertation's best efforts to consume my life. As always, I ask for
submissions and contributions, as well as suggestions on how I can improve
the site and make it more useful to the Tekumel web community.

[Moderator's Note:  The jade Arch is: www.interlog.com/~maliszew/jade.html]

I have tried very hard to get the permission of and credit the authors of
all material on my site. Nevertheless, I am sure that there have been
omissions and mix-ups. If so, this was not intentional. Please bring any
errors or concerns to my attention and I will gladly do whatever I can to
rectify them.

Thanks,
James
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//797

[Moderator's Note:  Luther Martin asks about the precursor of the languages of]
[                   Tekumel.  Professor, you'll probably a logical choice for ]
[                   answering this along with some of our other language spec-]
[                   ialists.                                                  ]

Does anyone know of efforts to reconstruct a common proto-language from
the languages of Tekumel? (Perhaps the right question to ask is if these
languages were constructed with a common proto-language in mind.) I am
curious about this for the following reason.

I assume that advanced communications and computer technology will
greatly reduce if not eliminate the natural evolution of languages over
time, so that the language spoken by the original Earth visitors to
Tekumel in about 60000 AD was very similar to modern English (or pick
your favorite modern language). I further assume that the original human
settlers of Tekumel all spoke this common future language. I even
further assume that once Tekumel was sucked into its current dimension
and all technology was lost, the natural evolution of languages resumed.
(Yes, these are big assumptions, but I am making them.)

Now English evolved from Old English (roughly 449 AD to 1100 AD) through
Middle English (roughly 1100 AD to 1500 AD) to Modern English in a
fairly short time, undergoing a number of fairly significant changes. If
we go back even further, we find that most European languages evolved
from a common ancestor in about 7000 years. Thus we have 7000 years is
enough time for this proto-language (Proto-Indo-European) to evolve into
languages as diverse as Icelandic, Latin, French, Greek, Persian,
Sanskrit, and Hindi. Fortunately, there are enough clues in the
descendants of PIE to allow for this reconstruction to take place. 

Being no expert on Tekumel history, I have no real idea of the length of
time from the collapse of technology on Tekumel to the present time, but
I am sure that it is at least from a few to several millenia. Thus the
combination of ancient and existing languages of Tekumel could allow
scholars to reconstruct my hypothetical proto-language.

My question for the Tekumel gurus out there is this: either has this
been done, or were the Tekumel languages designed with this in mind? If
it has been done, I would be very interested in the steps in the
evolution.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//798

[Moderator's Note:  George Hammond asks a very interesting question about  ]
[                   why people would want to worship the deities of Change.]

Despite the enlightening help of the Bob Alberti's "Mitlanyal", I
still have a hard time understanding of the roles of some of the Gods of
Change.  I understand that the average "Tsolyani on the street" is quite
moderate in his/her beliefs and religious intensity, but nonetheless, it
is hard to understand how some of the Tloquiriqaluyal command the loyalty
of more than a relatively small cadre of fanatics and outlaws.  Their
driving principles seem too much at odds with the needs of their
worshipers and the requirements of society.  What is the most one can ask
from Hru'u?  Change perhaps, but apparently with no assurance that the
change will not be catastrophically worse than the old condition.  What
does service to Ksarul gain for a hard-working agricultural clan, compared
to the undeniable benefits of serving Avanthe?  Why would any general
prefer his troops to serve Vimuhla and Chiteng, patrons of destruction and
atrocity, instead of Karakan and Chegarra, who reward dutiful service and
courage?  Hru'u/Wuru and Vimuhla/Chiteng in particular seem at best to be
powers to be appeased and deflected, rather than lords whose attention one
might desire.  
	It is even more difficult to understand why rulers have permitted
or encouraged their worship.  Hru'u and his cohort in particular seem
utterly at odds with goals of Imperial rule.  It is clear that now the
Lords of Change are powerful enough that they cannot be eliminated
(Empress Shaira Su's withdrawal from the gates of the City of Sarku is a
convincing case), but how did they get that way?  And why, today, in the
time of the Concordat, are not more Tsolyani "voting with their feet" and
worshiping deities who can better provide for them?  

	I have learned that for Tekumel, it is best to try to answer one's
own questions, so here are a couple of answers to the question: "why
are the Lords of Change so popular?" Comments, criticisms, rebuttals, are
encouraged.

--Easy one:  Sarku.  Nobody wants to die if they can avoid it.  To
"embrace the worm" is no easy matter, but at least it's clear why one
might do it.

--History.  Vimuhla and Ksarul were worshipped long before the Lords of
Stability were known.  "The Flame is a harsh master, but he has always
been our Lord".  Tradition has great power in Tsolyani culture, so this is
a force to be reckoned with.  Still, this alone doesn't seem enough to me. 

--Maybe They Aren't As Bad As We Think.  This is, imho, my innovative
notion on this question.  My impression is that often we see the
Stability-Change continuum as equivalent to Good-Evil (and I know some
Tekumel fans, particularly gamers, make that connection overtly).  I
recall that Dr. Barker's writing argues against equating Change and Evil,
none the less the Change gods are given dire descriptions and seem to show
the preferences for destruction, pain, disorder and exaggerated
self-interest that is conventionally equated with "evil", and that the
vast majority of people living in an organized society would try to avoid. 
But all this is only half of Change.  Change is just, well, Change. 
Construction, growth, increase in strength or happiness or wealth, these
are also changes.  If these are truly deities of Change, then they will
use and favor both destruction and construction, pain and pleasure, they
will support and lift up as well as cast down.

I don't think the literature to date has adequately emphasized the
popular, constructive, socially acceptable sides of the Tloquiriqaluyal.
<g>
"Dispenser of Calamities" (Hru'u), "Black Sword of Doom" (Gruganu),
"Drinker of Blood" (Chiteng), "Mistress of Demons" (Dlamelish) 
pfeh!  
Try "Initiator of the New", "Hound of Puissant Knowledge", "Master of
Order" and "Patroness of 1000 Delights".  This isn't just spin, these
are all valid (imho) names for the deities based on their descriptions in
Mitlanyal.

So allow me suggest some specifics:

	Hru'u and Wuru.  They way these two are described, they are
frightening and cruel.  But they are also masters of events, and very
powerful.  Good things can happen for those that serve them.  Unexpected,
even unlikely things, but possibly very good things.  These may be the
patrons of lost causes, of desperate gamblers, and of the truly ambitious.
They are the Lords of the Single Event.  The Temple of Hnalla may always
give old loaves of Dna-bread on the 3rd day of every week, every year.
The Temple of Hru'u tears down 5 blocks of tenements, rebuilds them far
better than they ever were, restores the tenants to them, and buys
everyone who lives there new clothes and enough food to live for a year.
Then never does it again.  When the rains do not come, farmers may cry to
Avanthe to restore the cycle. They might also ask Wuru to send the rain,
now, this year, this season.  The Lords of Stability probably won't help
if what you need would break a cycle.  But the Lords of Change might be
happy to oblige.

Dlamelish and Hrihayal.  The descriptions are very focussed on selfishness
and personal gratification.  But remember, Dlamelish wants *everybody* to
be having a good time, in Her name.  I was confused:  why would Dlamelish
priestesses willingly couple so indiscriminantly?  Why wouldn't these
highly-sexed people be choosy, and always be looking for a better lay?
Perhaps it is because they also serve their Goddess by getting their
partner off.  Well.  Frequently.  So the partner is reminded, nay, struck,
by the importance of physical pleasure in his/her/their lives, and so take
steps to enhance that pleasure in the future, and so become more attentive
to the goals of the Goddess of Pleasure.  These folks always throw the
best parties.  At which there will be servants of the Green Ladies who
understand about inhibitions, and shyness, and the limitations imposed by
one's dignity, and who know how to ease one gently and comfortably past
those inhibitions...
ahem. <g>  
So anyway, posit a smart, slightly less self-indulgent version of the
servants of Dlamelish, and one can understand the attraction.  Not sure
why priests in the service of Dlamelish are "dregs" and "perverted brutes"
and the priestesses aren't, but maybe it has to do with Inner Rites that I
am not aware of.  I wonder if maybe most of the youth of Tekumel doesn't
go through a Dlamelish-worshipping phase sometime shortly after puberty?

Vimuhla and Chiteng.  The fierce energy of Vimuhla's flame is seductive.
Organizations with this much energy and purpose have a drawing power all
their own.  Mitlanyal emphasizes that this energy is controlled and
focussed, that the religion is not about burning everything down now, but
just the unrighteous.  That makes it much more socially functional.  There
is almost a Messianic sense about it as well, in that doctrine says that
in the end, it *all* *will* burn.  That the Flamelord will come and burn
the world away.  No question that this is a powerful deity, and therefore
attractive.  Besides, even on hot world of Tekumel, the power of fire is
one of the fundamental forces of technology.  A strong draw all by itself.
 Chiteng is more of a problem.  It seems like only true sadists and
masochists would worship him.  Who else would worship the deity of pain?
But he is the Fire-keeper, the one who feeds the flame, and so he could
also be seen as one who keeps order, even if it hurts.  Not a particularly
fun god, but that role does make him more accessible, and jibes with his
popularity among police, and the Legion of Ketl.  Mitlanyal mentions that
his rituals involve noon-time public burnings, and are lavish and popular
with lots of food and drink.  Why so popular?  I'm still a bit perplexed
on this.  Maybe he also helps overcome pain?

Some of this is a bit at odds with the descriptions of the theology of the
Gods.  I'm not trying to revise that, just suggesting some social
mechanisms that might be going on within the masses that worship the
ChangeLords.  I know that the masses of Tsolyani are sometimes
characterized as being fairly non-devout, distinguished more by choices of
garment color than spiritual outlook, but I think that is easily
overstated. In a world where the power of deities is directly manifested,
and so great, surely few can afford to be too indifferent to the
principles of those deities? 

I'd be delighted to know what others think.

George Hammond
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//799

[Moderator's Note:  Michael Schwarz comments on George's post (he saw it on ]
[                   the newsgroup).  He has offered to collect the responses]
[                   and send a summary.                                     ]

George Hammond asks "Why follow the Lords of Change?" The answer, from a
more moderate Tekumelani perspective, would likely be "Because it is
tradition," or "Because the Gods command it." There is certainly a
propitiatory factor amongst such worshippers, although there *are*
benefits other than the prophylactic.

The recent civil war is a splendid example: in this period of violent
upheaval, those able to adapt to the times prospered while those unable to
adapt did not. Nowhere else is this more evident than in the
disposition/fate of the Imperial heirs. To whit:

CHANGE
=======
 -- Dhich'une was Emperor for a time, before he deciding
    to flee for a more suitable clime with head intact;
 -- Mirusiya is currently Emperor (long may he reign);
 -- Taksuru and Rereshqala positioned themselves to take
    advantage of the political situation, and now have a
    most grateful Emperor owing them favors;
 -- Mridobu and Ma'in are at least *alive*... thus far.

[Moderator's Note:  Mridobu still has not been seen as far as I know.  No ]
[                   information about him is known currently.  Phil may   ]
[                   know differently.                                     ]

STABILITY
==========
 -- Aremala and Surundano both renounced the Gold to live
    in seclusion far from Imperial affairs, and did so in
    short order after the civil war erupted;
 -- Eselne died... twice.

>From a modern psychoanalytical perspective, the answer seems obvious to
>me: some people thrive far more in dynamic situations than in static ones.
>Those familiar with the science fiction television series "Babylon 5"
>might wish to compare the Lords of Change to the Shadows:
>instrumentalities using *evolution*, rather than enlightenment, to achieve
>their ends. Certainly fewer survive, but those who do are the most
>cunning, ruthless and/or adaptable they can be.

Sounds like reason enough to follow 'em to me... :)

-- 
Michael Schwartz     mschwartz@mindspring.com     Ann Arbor, MI  USA
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//800

[Moderator's Note:  An anonymous writer discusses the Reality of Tekumel. ]

Some time ago, I sent a message on the potential reality of Tekumel.  A
few responses from others (thanks) lent some supporting evidence that
Tekumel is real and that some of us reach through.  The newsgroup has
recently tangentially touched on the reality theme as well.

What are the implications of this?

Well, one big one is that a nuclear holocaust is going to wipe out much
of the human race at the end of the Mayan long count in c. 2012.  The
Professor has always stated this as a fact of Tekumel's history, not as
an item of information relayed to him by a possibly mistaken informant.
So, it seems certain.  Hmm, that is a big implication.

But, there might be something *even bigger* going on.  If we trace the
history of published Tekumel, we find that the Pariah Gods, especially
the Goddess of the Pale Bone, have become an increasingly prominent
feature of the mythos.  The 1975 EPT barely mentioned the Pariah Gods,
though their larger future role was foreshadowed.  Looking at more
recent works (e.g. "Sunuz") and the amount of attention the Goddess gets
in the Blue Room, it's clear that the focus has shifted.

Everything we know about the Goddess indicates that she would be
interested in entering our dimension (this has also been vaguely alluded
to in some of the published works).  We also know from Tekumel that to
enter a dimension the Pariah Gods require the active collaboration of
humans (or whatever sentients) within that dimension.  I note that some
of the Pariah sigils (a potent tool) have been published.  Could it be
that the Tekumel "hobby" is part of the Goddess's plan slowly to wedge
open a window into our world?  Is it possible that some Blue Room
subscribers are knowingly complicit with the Goddess or even He'eksa?
Could the rest of us be unconsciously aiding the Goddess's plans?  Is
this, in fact, the "Central Mystery of Tekumel"?

It's something to think about.  Before the nuclear holocaust, that is.

I'm sure the idea that Tekumel may be part of a plot that might lead to
the complete destruction of our dimension is not likely to spark as much
interest as the suggestion that some of our references to women are a
bit juvenile (sorry, can't talk about that).  Other views/arguments
would still be welcome though.

[Moderator's Note:  I've been found out!  I'll turn into a stinking pile]
[                   of goo by morning!   ;)                             ]
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//801

[Moderator's Note:  David Aitken is going to be at UCon this year and run ]
[                   some impressive Tekumel events.  Check this out before]
[                   deciding not to come to UCon.  I'll include the impor-]
[                   tant info from one of Joe Saul's posts below.         ]

UCon advertisement
Again:  U*Con is November 20-22, in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  Friday runs
6pm-midnight; Saturday 9am-midnight; Sunday 9am-8pm.  (And the big
free-form is Sunday morning-afternoon, so try not to schedule departing
flights too early...)  
--------------

Even in the flickering and smokey light of the 
workmen's lanterns, the sarcophogus is a grand 
sight.  It looks at home, here in this chamber of
fresh hewn living rock.  The smell of wet paint
mixes with the priest's incense and the lingering
dust from the recent excavation.

The ornate coffin is made from fine grained,
black tiu-wood that has
been treated using the secrets of the Embalmers 
Clan.  It will last a millenium without deteriorating.
Thick bronze straps, with intricate chasings and 
designs bind it.  The top and sides are lacquered 
in bright scarlet and crimson and yellow.  A 
streaking bolt of lightning is carved along the 
length of the top and filled with melted gold.  
Absolutely breathtaking:  a very respectable final  
accommodation for a noble hero, and something 
to be strived for in this life! 

Voroku and his cousins have done a fine job
at blending this new level into the previous
tombs which were expanded from natural caves 
half a millenium ago.  From the entrance foyer 
and the grand Hall of Memories with its huge
marble columns set in two perfectly straight
rows, a single new corridor branches off at
a slight downward slope and then to a parallel
hall.  The walls here have been plastered and
painted yellow offset with bright red and gold
lettering giving the history of the Ru'enkal 
lineage and the many heroic ancestors that have
led up to Honored Lord Tlekuro himself.

Carpets bearing the colorfull symbols of
the Blade Raised High Clan and the striking,
forked lightning bolt of God Karakan lay 
the length of the hall.  A broad, angular
expanse of steps, of varying geometric shapes 
reminiscent of the grand Hero's Ascension  
leading to the pinnacle of the Temple of 
Karakan in Jakalla brings one to the 
main burrial chamber.

And now it is time to seal this place from
threat of despoiling.  Three massive stone
blocks each as tall as two men, are already
set on their sledges to be driven into the 
doorway.  The gang of forty slaves are resting
on their haunches, preparing for the effort,
their towering, one-armed Nluss overseer idly
stroking one of his vringalu-leather whips. 

The quiet is broken by the echoing call of the
watch trumpet.  The sandaled foot-steps of a
running messenger sound loud in the ringing 
silence:

"Lord Shu'on!  Our gaurds are set upon by Undead 
in the outer Hall!" 

The veil of time draws across this spectacle of
Noble Action beset by terror.  No modern Tsolyani
have set foot into those hallowed precincts.

Until now...
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//802

[Moderator's Note:  Wes Postlethwaite notes on the Addressing an Officer    ]
[                   message.  Had these ready last night, but fell asleep.  ]
[                   I'll be on a weekend trip to the Big Easy starting      ]
[                   Friday, but I'll be back Sunday night.                  ]

That may be true for our culture, but, Tekumel culture has class segregation
and a long history of being specific as who you are addressing.  An example is
"several" different words for "you".  
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//803

[Moderator's Note:  Leonard Erickson offers some ideas about scanning the   ]
[                   northeast frontier maps.                                ]

>[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker answers a question about the Temple of]
>[                   Jneksha'a from Charles Martin.                         ]

>>In IMJ II 1 (Fall 2358 A.S.) there is a reference to a map series for the
>>Pass of Skulls, complementing the Northwest Frontier set.  Does this exist,
>>perhaps in remnants that could be released to the FTP site?
>
>Six maps of the north*east* frontier were done, going from Sunraya and
>Tleku Miriya over to Saa Allaqi. These large maps (same size as the maps
>for the North*west* frontier) were supposed to be published but never made
>it. Keith Dalluhn also worked on the gazetteer for them, but I don't
>recall that he ever finished it. I have a set of these maps, but they are
>too big to be scanned in -- not with my little scanner! Otherwise I have no
>objection if somebody wants to look at them or even put them into some
>usable electronic format.

I think some of the copying outfits (such as Kinko's) may have large
scanners. Even if they don't, they *do* have large, *color* copiers.
You might want to check what it'd cost to copy the maps. 
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//804

[Moderator's Note:  Roger McCarthy responds to Gordon's message about maps. ]

>Does the term 'sand table' strike a chord? It's not just the nobles
>and merchants who want to 'see' what they're dealing with: Generals and
>other High Command staff have pressing need to know EXACTLY what they're
>facing in terms of terrain.<

I am with the professor rather than Gordon Neff on this one - yes sand 
tables are a good idea but like virtually every other good idea that 
surrounds us now the human race got on until the 19th and 20th century 
without anyone thinking of them and I can well believe that at some point in 
the far (or even very near) future we'll either forget most of them or lose 
the ability to realise them.

My own view is that the modern obsession with mapping everything down to the 
smallest practical scale has a lot to do with the development of faster and 
faster transportation meaning that the amount of territory that can be 
potentially covered in a period of time has more or less continually 
expanded for several centuries and made it important for us to be able to 
access far more information about that territory than any individual had to 
know when nobody could travel faster than a man or a horse.

Consider a medieval pilgrim going from London to Jerusalem. On a good day he 
might walk 10 or 15 miles and would at no point need to know more than the 
start and finish points of the next couple of days travel as everywhere he 
goes there are people he can ask for directions and inns, hostels and 
monasteries specifically designed to help (or exploit) pilgrims on their 
way.

Compare that to a modern tourist making the same journey by car - he might 
end up going roughly the same route but will be faced every few minutes with 
a bewildering array of options as to which precise road he should take (as 
well as an assumption that the best route is the one that'll let him drive 
there fastest) and as he has no time or inclination to memorise the whole 
route his map serves as an indispensable aide-memoire - unless of course he 
just flies in which case he needs no map at all.

Tekumelani travellers are almost always going to be on foot and will move 
slowly enough to get their information en route, If like generals or traders 
they have to plan further ahead they are like most historical generals and 
traders up to the modern period dependent on their memories and those of 
people who know the territory and I see why no reason why they need detailed 
contour maps or sandtables any more than Genghis Khan, Alexander, Hannibal 
or Charlemagne did (and remember they operated over territories far more 
sparsely populated than Tekumel).

Also remember that even today most people have never seen a detailed map of 
their own territory and the rest of us regularly travel thousands of miles 
without having to open one.  As someone else also pointed out the Japanese 
are able to get by perfectly well without decent city maps (a bit 
meaningless when you don't have street names and consecutive building 
numbers anyway) travelling about by asking locals or by using the schematic 
'line and circle' maps of their (fiendishly complex) public transport 
systems, while when I visited Russia a few years ago I was amazed that the 
only  decent city maps in existence of big cities like Moscow and Leningrad 
were those supplied by the CIA or in the 1913 Baedecker of the Russian 
Empire..

Finally remember that the sort of people who travel widely in Tekumel are 
not atomised individuals but belong to national and to some degree 
international clan and temple organisations - you want to know how long the 
distance from Sokatis to Pechano is and what sort of terrain and potential 
threats and opportunities you might encounter on the way ? - then you just 
write to your clan-house or temple in Sokatis and they'll eventually put you 
in touch with someone who knows - OK it'll take weeks and months but that's 
how long it'll take you to walk there anyway !

Roger McCarthy
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//805

[Moderator's Note:  Peter Huston offers commentary on the Language Question.]

Hey, he's forgetting the atomic war in the distant past, our future. It
killed all the black and white folks leaving only the brown and tan folks.
This means that the proto-language was not English based. Instead it was a
pidgin of Mayan, Arabic and some other things... I honestly don't remember.
Javanese maybe? Urdu? At least I know it wasn't Inuit-based even if they
are brown skinned and dark haired. It's a Messkin thing as they say in
Texass. Does this explain why Tsolyani can be written in spray paint and
Yan Koryani looks like it's been done with stencils? (I didn't say that.
Somebody just broke into my house and logged onto my computer. Or it's one
of those crazy hacker types masquerading with my e-mail
address...Something... not me anyway... ) 

Let me ask a question. Years ago I played in a game run by the professor's
friend when they came to a small con in Schenectady. I think we're talking
about 1978ish. There was a creature in the dungeon called "the worms of the
night" and some crystalline daggers that contained acid, poison, something
icky and could be stabbed into someone and then snapped off. How come worms
of the night aren't in the bestiary?  

[Moderator's Note:  I am not familiar with the Worms of the Night, but the  ]
[                   dagger is somewhat reminiscient of Pa'iya's Kiss, which ]
[                   is a glass vial full of Food of the Ssu, or some equally]
[                   noxious substance.  It is usually thrown or flung at the]
[                   victim.                                                 ]

Let me ask another question. One of the miniature rules has Hlyss spitting
acid on people? Do Hlyss spit acid? I can find no mention of it anywhere
else?  

[Moderator's Note:  You are probably thinking of the Serudla.  Very nasty   ]
[                   things when they want to be.  Only times I ever met them]
[                   they were in a decent mood, and I wasn't hunting them or]
[                   otherwise bothering them.  A good plan, usually.        ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Huston 
phuston@capital.net
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//806

[Moderator's Note:  Ron Heintz's alter-ego provides some insight to the   ]
[                   worship of the Deities (thanks Joe) of Change.        ]

For the amusement of the list-readers, a dissertation from my 
Ksarul-following priest.  I am a player and co-referee on David Aitken's
server (unfortunately under repairs at the moment) and will be 
assisting him at U-Con.

Of course, Ksarul is, perhaps, the "least-evil" of the Gods and 
Cohorts of change, to a western mind-- especially to a politician...

[Moderator's Note:  I know others who would disagree.   ;)                ]

The dissertation harkens back to Srochusetl's days as an Acolyte.

	Ron Heintz

On The Nature And Use Of Knowledge

A monograph by Acolyte Srochusetl hi Zhodamai, undertaken at the 
Temple of Ksarul at Jakalla.

The adherents of grey Lord Thumis and we of Lord Ksarul are oft-
times compared by the laiety. To the uninitiated, there may, indeed, be 
some superficial resemblance between our two religions. Are we not both 
concerned with the acquisition and the use of knowledge? Do we not 
serve our respective gods best when extending, expanding and cataloguing
those data which we may uncover or produce by our own efforts? Even 
those who know naught of the dogmas of our Temples also understand that 
there is a divergence in thinking about the use to which such knowledge
is to be put, but there, their understanding usually ends.

For the purpose of edification of those lay-students who may be 
considering closer association with our Azure Lord's path, but who are 
as yet unacquainted with our doctrines, I present this argument 
regarding the nobility and superiority of our understanding of the 
nature of knowledge and its usages.

It is well-understood by most that knowledge is power. What is 
often missed is that it is also a commodity and a resource. As a 
resource, it has two types: newly-produced knowledge and discovered, or
unearthed knowledge. Only a sophist of limited practicality could not 
see that the knowledge which is produced today is only rarely of high 
value. It is the knowledge imparted to us by the gods in millenia past 
and that knowledge and those artifacts of the Ancients which survive 
to us, which are of the greatest worth and the most rarified natures.

Now, what does one do with a precious and limited resource? Does 
one dole it out, piecemeal, to all members of the household, the clan, 
to the slaves, to neighbours, to the beggars in the streets? Could all 
of these folk even recognise a precious thing for its true value? What 
use might they make of it? As an example, if a starving beggar were 
given a work of art from the 3rd dynasty of the Engsvanyali Empires, 
would this person marvel at it, strive to understand it, benefit from 
it and glorify his god with it? Or would he trade or sell it to some 
vendor for food with which to stuff his belly? And could one blame the 
poor beggar? No, one should rather blame the fool who put the artwork 
into his possession.

If a rich clan were to equally-divide all of its wealth among all
of its members, what would transpire? Who would see to the necessary 
upkeep of the buildings, to inducements, to the setting-aside of funds
against emergency, to the tithes to the Temples and so forth? If the 
vast majority of the members-- who, to be fair, would be unschooled in 
the proper use of wealth-- were to squander this foolish clan's 
substance, what times would it fall upon?

So it is, O Sagacious Reader, with knowledge. Some superficial 
argument may be made for the noble purpose of education of those beyond
the folk who can actually make use of it, of the preservation of 
knowledge by its dissemination to as many as possible. But this does 
not bear close scrutiny: tell a secret to 20 people, let them have a few
days and then gather the secret back to yourself. It will not resemble
that which you originally made known. Largely, the effect of the 
passing-on of knowledge to those not skilled in the use and care of it,
is that knowledge's perversion and corruption. It is spoiled; worse, 
it can be mistaken for the true knowledge and this can lead to error 
and even disaster. Would you like to attempt the conjuration of a 
demon by use of the formulae and rites of a method passed to you through
3 intermediaries, one of whom was barely-literate?

The nature of knowledge is that it is precious, fragile and, 
potentially, ephemeral. It must be gathered, confirmed, purified, 
tested in the crucibles of comparison and research, protected, nurtured
and used by those who will respect its power and potential for both 
good and harm. Such qualities in a person must be learned, inculcated 
and honed through practice and hard effort-- precisely that sort of 
effort which we of the Priesthoods practise. As to which order of 
seekers of knowledge know how to use and care for it, even casual 
attention to the foregoing passage will show that, while the grey-robed
scholars of Thumis make fine Healers and Teachers of grammar, rhetoric
and history, the true artifacts and muniments of power were best left
to we of the Temple of Ksarul, whose specific, god-commanded task it
is to carefully gather unto ourselves all such information and 
artifacts and to make them proper and ready against the time when 
they can truly be put to noble and worthy use.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//807

[Moderator's Note:  Stop the presses!!  Bob Alberti provides an update of the]
[                   happenings on Tekumel.                                   ]

Hopefully the Professor or other members of the Thursday Night Group will
be kind enough to correct the errors doubtlessly present...

David Peters (HRAZ71A@prodigy.com) wrote:
:        I am wondering if anyone knows of a webpage or if they can email 
: information on the political situation on Tekumel.  I am only familiar 
: with the Tsolyani-Yan Kor war.

:       Where can I get the events after the war and to the present.

At last check, it is autumn, 2368.  Mirusiya is Emperor, Rereshqala is
in Avanthar as head of the High Chancery (the bureaucracy of Avanthar
if I'm not mistaken).  Taksuru has taken the position of High General
of the Empire.  Mridobu remains missing.  I haven't heard what's happened
to Ma'in Kruthai recently.  Dhich'une remains off-plane, but is nonetheless
a thorn in the side and a pain in the ass.

Aremala is in Tumissa being a sculptress.  Surundano is somewhere being
a file clerk.  A couple of other Heirs were revealed at the presentation
of the Gold, and they also relinquished the Gold.

The Baron Ald has returned to his capitol and is putting down upstart
regions of Yan Kor that tried to take advantage of his involvements in
Tsolyanu in 2366-67 to break away.  Ald is in the constant company of
Lady Kalusu hiViridame, with whom he struck up a relationship while
in Bey Su assisting first Dhich'une and then Mirusiya.

The Mu'ugalavyani continue their consolidation and oppression of Livyanu,
distributing their pernicious anti-magic stones in patterns which cut off
magical power to whole cities and regions.  Some concern has arisen that
their distribution of these anti-magic zones -- sometimes in lightly-
populated and otherwise unimportant areas -- is meant to establish a 
larger pattern of patterns, encompassing whole portions of the Livyani
peninsula in its magically-dead zone of effect.  

In Tsolyanu, the Mu'ugalavyani have seized Butrus, and plans are rumored
to be underway for an expeditionary force led by General Arumel hiChankolel
(the legendary general, muscular, barrel-chested, square-jawed and heroic,
with piercing steely eyes and a courageous, decisive military acumen,
who led the expedition that freed Mirusiya from the seige of Tleku Miriya)
to seize it back.

The Livyani continue to battle back, recently defeating the Mu'ugalavyani
at Neihei (sp?), led by the resistance leader known as Fireface.  She 
acquired her name surviving the Mu'ugalavyani plague that slew so many
of her compatriots but left her with a bright red rash-like scar on her
face.

The Shen were also impacted by the False Plague, and have withdrawn into
their own nation, having no present interest in the goings-on to their north.

The Salarvyani continue their forays into southeastern Tsolyanu, but no
serious invasion seems to be underway as Mirusiya continues to reunite and
reorganize the Empire.  Rumor has it that Salarvyani worshippers of Black
Qarqa are somehow assisting the Mu'ugalavyani.

Of Saa Allaqi and places northeast I know little, save that in Lorunje the
peasants speak of a recent revolution? coup? changeover? in ther rulers who
live in mountaintop keeps.

That's what I know!  Much of it may be wrong!
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//808

[Moderator's Note:  James Snead takes a stab at Change worship.           ]

The key to the issue of why average Tekumelani worship the Lords of Change 
is that social "good" is culturally relative.  A pertinent example
comes from ancient Mesoamerica, in our own world.  The association of
ritual with human sacrifice seems to have originated quite early there,
culminating in the mass sacrifices of the Aztec period.  Credible 
scholars have estimated that tens of thousands of individuals were
sacrificed on the altars of Huitzilopochtli at Tenochtitlan.  Afterwards
the sacrificial victims - typically slaves and war captives - were
dismembered and eaten.

One of the functions of this practice was, in ritual terms, to feed the 
sun, so that it continued on its daily course.  For the average citizen
of Tenochtitlan sacrifice was thus traditional and imperative, since
without it the agricultural cycle could not be sustained.  The cult of
sacrifice would also have been a source of pride, since it was a symbol
of the achievements of empire.  That it might be repellent and evil
to take life in such a fashion would have been nonsensical, since its 
advantages were obvious.

This is difficult for us to understand, since it runs against our own
fundamental cultural values.  These are not things that we can realistically
set aside, since they form the fabric of our own world; but imagine the
Aztecs fighting the conquistadors and preferring to capture the Spanish for 
sacrifice rather than simply kill them in battle.  These efforts severely
increased the Aztec casualties, and perplexed the Spanish; but the
honor of sacrifice was far more important than merely killing the 
enemy.  And the Spanish no doubt thought it was particularly unpleasant, as
they fought through the streets of the capital, to hear the screams of
their comrades on the altars.  

It didn't make sense to them, nor does it to us, but the incompatibility 
of cultural viewpoints didn't trouble the Aztecs.  And there is not much 
distance between accepting this reality and grasping the logic behind the 
worship of Sarku, who both glories in the inevitability of death and 
promises that for the faithful it can result in transformation rather 
than oblivion.  Are the grotesque trappings his rituals really 
surprising, devised by people who pass by the impalement stakes on the 
way to market, and whose experience with death and decay are far more 
familiar than our own?


James Snead
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//809

[Moderator's Note:  Preston Simpson chimes in on the language question.   ]

>I assume that advanced communications and computer technology will
>greatly reduce if not eliminate the natural evolution of languages over
>time, so that the language spoken by the original Earth visitors to
>Tekumel in about 60000 AD was very similar to modern English (or pick
>your favorite modern language). I further assume that the original human
>settlers of Tekumel all spoke this common future language. I even
>further assume that once Tekumel was sucked into its current dimension
>and all technology was lost, the natural evolution of languages resumed.
>(Yes, these are big assumptions, but I am making them.)

A few points:

1. To state the problem briefly: 58,000 years is a long time. It would
not, to my way of thinking, be unreasonable to assume that people in
60,000 CE are sufficiently different from us modern-day humans as to
fall into a different subspecies (human, and classifiable as h.
sapiens, but *not* h. sapiens sapiens). This is especially true in the
aftermath of a nuclear war. In fact, I find it difficult to believe
that physical changes would *not* result from the passage of such a
long period of time.
2. Given the changes that would have come about in the human form, I
don't think it impossible that though the humans who occupied
Tekumel pre-Cataclysm might have had a common language, they still
would have had (and used frequently) other languages amongst
themselves.
3. As far as I'm willing to guess (and I'm no linguist), English is
one of the best-suited languages we have today to become a common
language, despite its idiosyncracies and outright insanities,
simply because English speakers have no qualms whatsoever about
borrowing words and phrases wholesale from other languages. That
feature, along with the social history of English-speaking peoples,
means that English is going to be around for a while.
   That said, I don't think it's going to be around for 58,000
years, not in any form even remotely resembling the one it has
today. Think about it: 58,000 years is a span of time longer than
recorded history to date by a factor of eight or nine. No
language is going to last that long in any recognizable form unless
absolutely incredible forces of linguistic stasis are at work--
which would suggest some sort of radical change in human psychology.

>Being no expert on Tekumel history, I have no real idea of the length of
>time from the collapse of technology on Tekumel to the present time, but
>I am sure that it is at least from a few to several millenia. Thus the
>combination of ancient and existing languages of Tekumel could allow
>scholars to reconstruct my hypothetical proto-language.

   The span from the time from the Cataclysm to "modern" Tekumel is,
I think, between twenty and twenty-five thousand years.
   Not knowing anything of the structure of Tekumelani languages, I'm
not in a position to say whether the modern languages might not
derive from some post-Cataclysmic proto-language. The idea is
possible, perhaps, but I'd be skeptical of the idea of just one
proto-language, given the span of time involved and the likely
conditions before the Cataclysm.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

//810

[Moderator's Note:  Brett Slocum has started a Tekumel Web ring.  

I just wanted to let everyone know that I've started a Tekumel Web Ring. 
If you have a web page with Tekumel content, join the web ring at
http//www.io.com/~slocum/webring/. That's also where you'll find more info 
about the web ring.

Enjoy!
---
Brett Slocum -- slocum@nospam.io.com  - ICQ 13032903          
Tekumel: http://www.io.com/~slocum/tekumel.html 
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu:9000  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.

